DNAunion

DNAunion: Is an organism that is flash-frozen dead? Bacteria and even some insects can be frozen solid for long periods and then revived.

Now, if they were actually dead when they were frozen, then wouldn't their becoming alive again once "thawed" be an actual case of resurrection? Are you claiming that resurrection has been scientifically confirmed?

Anyway, you are trying your best to muddy the waters on something that is about as clear as can be: when an organism dies, its entropy/disorder increases. If you don't want to consider that an absolute requirement, fine by me - but it is true in "99.9999999%" of instances (which is why you had to go out of your way to try to counter me - and yet still failed).

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: DNAunion ]

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: DNAunion ]</p>

Principia

Aww... the pup is trying to show dominance.

Nope. When an organism decays, its entropy/disorder increases.

That bacteria bit was a nice strawman though. If you honestly believe that a flash freeze won't kill most organisms (and by that I mean necrosis as a result of irreversible protein denaturation and destruction of cellular macrostructures), why don't you try it on a part of your body?

DNA clearly forgot to add:

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Scientiae ]</p>

Supramolecular

Hi Lentic Catachresis,

You Said:

For instance if water and oil are mixed together they always separate into two distinct layers rather than mixing. Is this a violation of the 2LOT? Well, no. The chemical interactions between water and oil have a greater influence over the system than entropy does.

Supramolecular:

Oil and water separating is not a violation of the 2LOT because of the net entropy increase in the system. This is due to the hydrophobic effect.

When an oil molecule is placed in water, it causes the water molecules around it to become more ordered than they would be in the bulk liquid.
When two such oil molecules come together in water they dispel several relatively ordered water molecules (due to the smaller surface area of the molecules together) thus increasing the entropy of the system.

This process is almost totally entropy driven.

DNAunion

DNAunion: Decay was implicit in my statement "... when an organism dies, its entropy/disorder increases."

But let's go ahead and take my statement totally literally. Wouldn't even the moment of death itself be marked by an increase in entropy compared to the normal, living state?

************************
Came back to add this. I am talking about your typical, run-of-the-mill, natural-causes death here.
************************

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: DNAunion ]</p>

DNAunion

DNAunion: Why, I am correct.

The thread-starter dealt with the second law as it applies to biology: i.e., does biological evolution violate the second law?

This question does not deal with cosmomology (i.e., the origin, evolution, or large-scale structure of the Universe).

It also is not about physics itself, or thermodynamics itself. We aren't talking about a steam engine, or the cooling of a hot cup of tea, etc.

The question is about organisms undergoing biological evolution and how the second law applies. Note that two disciplines are involved: biology being one. Now, what area of science is devoted to the study of biology and its energy transformations? Could it be bioenergetics? You bet.

Oh, and, just for you............I WIN. :-)

Starboy

Interesting question, does entropy decrease the moment a living organism dies. Sort of like the question, does information have mass. Does order decrease when you turn off a computer? I would say yes. The order of a system is not only expressed in its physical configuration but in the motion of its internal components as well. Which ever of you is arguing that order decreases discontinuously the moment an organism dies I would have to agree.

Starboy

&lt;fixed a typo&gt;

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

Lentic Catachresis

Supramolecular

I said:

I then said:

You replied:

Am I not saying this?
If the hydrophobic effect isn't a chemical interaction then can you state why.

Entropy increases as a system becomes more disordered. Maximum entropy is achieved when molecules can diffuse over the largest possible volume. If oil and water mixed that would give maximum entropy.

BTW. I see you are a research scientist. What field do you work in.
And my post must be quite controversial for you to make your first post in half a year.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Lentic Catachresis ]</p>

DNAunion

DNAunion: What? The one law I explicitly said I “can’t remember” and then also qualified with “I think it is...” is incomplete? How astonishing.

Whichever :-)

Anyway, the definition I found in my college chemistry text was as I said:

DNAunion: I have found many reliable references for this definition, which follow:

(http://www.sasked.gov.sk.ca/docs/physics/u4c2phy.html)
[/quote]

DNAunion: Note that nowhere in this thread did I say your definition about not being able to reach absolute zero in a finite number of steps was wrong. Nope, I didn’t say that.

All I said was that I looked up the definition and found it to be in line with the ones I posted just above. It is like the second law – you can find it expressed different valid ways, each valid.

Principia

Really... laws of thermodynamics not about thermodynamics. And energy transformation/conservation is not about physics.

Your original conception involved molecular motions, which, supported by the link I provided, is clearly incomplete, if not ignorantly wrong.

Oh, and you started this thread by responding directly to the challenge of whether creationists could recall the other laws of thermodynamics. You failed, obviously, according to your admission above.

So, get off my leg, mutt, and go read your physics textbooks, preferably one advanced enough to compensate for your lack of critical thinking skills.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Scientiae ]</p>

tronvillain

Lentic Catachresis, I am afraid that you are wrong and Supramolecular is right. As a result of its polarity, water is forced to form pseudocrystalline latices around something nonpolar like an oil, and so an increase in entropy drives the seperation. When two oil molecules are brought together, the decrease in the number of water molecules in a pseudocrytalline latice results in a net increase in entropy.