King Rat

Laci, do you realize how much this one line says about you?

p.s. Laci, where are the emoticons?

joedad

That's pretty much my feeling as well, though I enjoy myth and fantasy.

But when you start building multimillion dollar mansions, and decorate the front wall with a carving of a man hanging from two boards, and start talking to this hanging man, and sing songs to it, and thank it for somehow saving yourself from yourself, and give money to it and dress people up in costumes pretending to be like it, and pretend to eat it, well, that's truly getting weird. I guess you really can have your god and eat it too.

As theism goes, the christ savior cult is truly a remarkable phenomenon of human history.

openeyes

Should I tell that to my kids when they need me to take care of something for them? Oh wait, they're atheist also, so they could say they don't have to answer to anyone, not me, not their teachers, not the cop who may stop them (one drives). Should I tell that to my employer? Should I tell that to the federal government at tax time? Should I tell that to my townhouse association if I don't follow the rules? Should I tell that to my friends if I casually blow off plans that we've made?

NEWSFLASH TO LACI: If we as humans want to experience some happiness in the world, we have to be responsible and answer to other humans around us, even if we don't believe in any gods.

Mageth

Umm, we don't have to answer to any gods, Laci. I still have personal responsibility and people that I have to answer to.

And that's a bit ironic, since I thought a critical reason for becoming a Christian was so that you would not have to answer to God in the sweet by-and-by. Shucking the personal responsibility for your actions off on Jesus, you know, and letting him do the answering for you.

emotional

Indeed so. The Christian god does not judge a murder or a theft, or reward a feeding or monetary help; he judges unbelief in Jesus, and rewards belief in Jesus. There is absolutely no concept of moral accountability in Christianity.

Enlighten Me

I have to answer to myself. My personal integrity, and respect for my own authenticity demanded that I discard Christian dogma that I came to lose regard for through my own analysis and examination. Thank goodness I found like-minded people to connect with here at IIDB!

Virgil Tibbs

Let's see, as justifications for theistic morality we have:

- authoritarianism (be good because god said so)
- bribery (be good so you can go to heaven)

Yeah, real noble.

See, there is this crazy thing called "empathy" you have obviously never heard of where I like to be good to people because I don't enjoy seeing them unhappy. :banghead:

Beyond that, even simple enlightened self-interest is more enlightened than many arbitrary and malicious theistic attitudes, such as homophobia (which while not universal to theism, is clearly very common and condoned by its holy books).

Unlike with god, there is clear evidence that moral codes exist: a moral code is simply an idea, so if someone thinks of it, it exists. However, while the idea of god exists (and often is used as justification for hurting people), the actual (meta-)physical being who punishes sinners, sends his son to earth to save us, and yadda yadda yadda requires a wee bit more evidence than ancient holy books that have no outside sources substantiating their outrageous supernatural claims.

Personally I find this whole "atheism leads to hedonism/nihilism" attitude offensive. For that matter, it is even more willfully ignorant that theism itself: at least there is no evidence god does not exist, while there is clear evidence that atheists can and do behave in an ethical fashion (and in fact far more ethically on average than your typical fundy, YMMV).

Tibbs

ashe

Would you say that you 'believe yourself to not be a rational person'? Or that you 'believe my question was rationalistic'?

Or would you avoid such language altogether?

emotional

Both.

Kilgore Trout

emotional said:
The big difference is that atheists are just stating facts based on reality. The christians are trying to scare people with their mythology. Saying there's a boogeyman out there and he's gonna get you is a cruel thing, but telling you the truth based on what we can observe is a good thing. Besides, why would not existing for eternity even slightly compare to being tortured in hell for all eternity? I didn't exist for billions of years before I was born and I didn't seem to notice. So I'm not going to worry about doing the same thing again after I die. I'm not too thrilled about the possible pain of the actual dying, but you have to deal with that whether there is an afterlife or not. Saying there is a hell created by a so-called loving god is a disgusting concept that only a sick mind bent on revenge could conceive of.

If society would learn that death is just part of life and it's not something to be afraid of, you wouldn't be so scared of death.


What is the "accountability" in your idea of the afterlife? Do bad people go to a hell type of punishment? Having "bad" people go to hell is no better than having people who don't believe in jesus going to hell. You should not have infinite punishment for finite "sins". Even someone like Hitler does not deserve eternal punishment. For one thing really bad people are probably insane anyway.