cheetah

This statement, IMO, ignores reality. Reality is, as has been stated before on this thread, that sex is both recreational and procreative. In fact, the vast majority of sexual acts that occur, I would venture to guess, are recreational. If people make a good faith effort to avoid procreation in their recreational sex, then they HAVE taken resopnsibility and punishing them further is ridiculous.

Your statement implies that people should only have sex when they want to have a baby, because a baby is a possibility of sex. Should people also only have sex when they want to get and STD or do you think that them taking responsibility in trying to avoid STDs is enough? Do you think people who, despite good faith efforts to stay safe from STDs, accidentally contracted and STD deserve to have to live with it as a form of taking responsibility for their action? If your previous statements remain consistent, you would want them to have to keep the STD and remain untreated as a way to take responsibility!

Vylo

A STD is drastically different then a human being. You can treat the STD with medicine and you can treat the unwanted child through adoption. You have a "way out" that does not involve the killing of a human fetus.

cheetah

The point is many people take responsibility. There's no more that could have been done except for people to not have recreational sex on the off chance that it may create a child. Either the people took responsibility or they didn't. If they did, they don't deserve to be punished, whether that be with an STD or a child.

Really, do you honestly expect people to stop having recreational sex?

cheetah

Another oft-used analogy is the car accident analogy. People drive cars knowing full well there is a chance that they could be killed or injured or they could injure or kill another person. Yet, people drive anyhow. Now, do you think that if someone was trying to be a good driver and taking all precautions, but somehow got in an accident and was severaly injured that they should "take responsibility" and not get treatment? I mean, they knew that an accident is a potential result of driving!

Adoption is not a way out. It still involves the woman carrying an unwanted fetus for 9 months, a prisoner to her own body. No human deserves that just because they had sex.

Vylo

If you cause a car accident you are still held responsible. You pay for it one way or another (monetary).

We are not talking about treatment for a woman, we are talking about killing another human being. You are to be held responsible and pay for it by carrying the child, just as a driver would have to pay a fine, if you wish to continue this type of comparison.

Someone who gets a STD pays for it by suffering the disease until the treatment is complete.

No, but I expect them to take responsibility for doing it, NO ONE HAS TO HAVE SEX, THEY CHOSE TO.

We are all prisoners in some way to our past. Perhaps we would be a bit more cautious if we were to actually take responsibility for our actions. It seems to be a common thing during these days to deny responsiblity.

People today take sex too lightly, they often don't realize the tremendous risk they take when they engage in it. I think many women should think twice before consenting to a man, and that many men should also think about the ramifications of getting a woman pregnant, since you too are respnsible.

dangin

I think our evolutionary development disagrees with you. The one thing all of our millions of generations of ancestors has in common is that they all had sex and procreated. Evolution has selected those of us who have sex to be here, because those who do as you suggest fail to procreate. We can choose from time to time to "restrain" ourselves, but our lives are going to be filled by sex so "restraint" is not really a viable option for any sexual species.


And there are children in adoptive and foster homes that live hell, just like in some biological homes. Your anecdotes do not make a scientific argument.

cheetah

No we're not. We're talking about aborting a fetus. Big difference

I would venture to say that that is not true. Recreational sex is a biological imperative, and even though some people manage to avoid it, it could have health consequences. Look at priests for christ's sake. It is not natural to refuse sex, and there's no reason to just because it may have unintended consequences. Those unintended consequences are reasons to provide education and help every person do his or her best to avoid the unintended consequences, and that's it.

Vylo

I suppose that is where I differ from many others. I value the potential of a developing human being just as much as that of fully grown one.

It may not be natural to refuse sex, but it is also not natural to have an abortion.

I am not going to let people slink out of their responsiblities towards a human life that they have started.

On a side note, I would think that we would be at least close to having the technology to remove a fetus from a mother without harming it, and then be able to implant it into a willing woman, or even into a type of artifical womb. Perhaps if we spent more time on finding this type of resolution to the situation, we would have better spent our time.

dangin

20% of pregnancies wind up in "spontaneous abortion" AKA miscarriage in the first trimester. It's happened to sexual partners of mine twice out of five pregnancies I've participated in. Stats like that make it sound like nature is all about the abortions.

And exactly what responsibility is that? Spell out exactly where this "responsibility" comes from. Who decided it was a "responsibility", and by what authority is it enforced?

Vylo

Abortions are voluntary, miscarriages are not.

Abortion is not "natural". You dont see animals shoving sticks up there trying to rip their unborn offspring out of their womb.

The responibility I am talking about that is the responsibility one has towards actions they voluntarily take, such as having sex. They are responsible for the outcome. This responsibility, unlike the other things we have discussed is natural within our species, and other species close to ours. We take care of our children, we are responsible for them.