David Mathews

[Hello Eudaimonist,

Do you consider yourself a moral person?

Love,

David Mathews

bonduca

Then why say that WE consider her to be atheist? Say honestly that it is YOUR opinion only.

Not that your opinion counts for squat. You evidently think you're a good Christian, too, instead of a malicious loser who likes to pick on women.

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

brighid

This is true to an extent. We do not have any mythical version of a deity commanding us to love our enemies, turn to other cheek or to view homosexuals, adulterers and feminists as abominations onto that mythical God, in your case Yahweh and Christ. Nor do atheists, whose only commonality is a lack of belief in all Gods (just one or three more then your own view) and as you have been told at least a dozen times atheism is ONLY a lack of belief. Atheism is not a moral code, but there are plenty of different moral codes an atheist can choose from. The only difference is we do not justify our actions or in actions upon the permission or prohibition of a God. Atheists are not by definition, or default bigoted, ignorant, hateful, angry or desperate. There are certainly those amongst our millions that quite possibly display those traits, just as you say if you look hard enough you will find those types of people amongst any group. So, what is your point? You have found a few atheists in your time that display these characteristics and you no doubt know of at least as many Christians who display these characteristics. But do you cast aspirations against the whole of Christendom because of these people as you have against the whole atheist community? And again, please provide some actual examples of these actions you are so fond of attributing to atheists in general. We have been kind enough to provide you with but a few Christian examples, surely you could dig up at least a dozen considering the plethora of information on this site.

I also find it disturbing that any moral system would attempt to obligate me to love someone who has not earned my respect or is deserving of my love. Each human being deserves a basic respect because they are human, with certain rights I feel should be unalienable. But very few have earned something as precious as my love, even though they will have my respect, compassion and empathy. Furthermore I won’t allow my self-respect to be belittled by hating any person. Hate has little or no benefit for me and it only serves to bind me to the person who has harmed me and my hate willingly gives them power over me. I may have varying degrees of dislike and disgust for the actions of many human beings, but I will not give over my self-respect to those who wish to develop my hatred for their advantage.

I would say that because atheists have no belief in a supernatural reward or eternal punishment system for their deeds that this makes their actions more moral then the theist who does things to gain favor in the eyes of their God or to avoid ever lasting punishment. I do what is right because it is right, not because I believe I am being watched and I will be rewarded or punished. I try not to do things to others that I don’t wish to be done to me. I do my best to respect others, but I will be damned if I will be stifled, ridiculed or abused by anyone. I am not a doormat and if you don’t wish to be treated in a manner that will ruffle your feathers please don’t piss on my parade and have the audacity to tell me it’s raining.

David you have reaped what you have sown here at II. You shouldn’t be at all surprised. I feel confident that if you went to another theist board and started making accusations such as “Catholics are hateful, angry, bigoted people…” (just as you have made here) that you wouldn’t garner a loving response either. Stop, and take a long hard look in the mirror and when you have gotten your own house in order then you may come back to OUR house and address the errors you see.

We are not hypocrites when we expect Christians to act like Christians, especially as they are commanded by their God to love their neighbor, praise their enemies and act humbly, kindly and with compassion ESPECIALLY to those who hate and persecute them. It is the duty of the Christian. So, we certainly DO expect you to act as you are commanded and befitting one who claims THEE superior moral high ground. If you think so lowly of us and then engage in the tactics you say you despise and are attempting to flush out …well who is the hypocrite and who is not possessed of that imaginary high ground?

B

bonduca

Excellent post, Brighid. It's probably wasted on Mr. Mathews, but it was brilliant.

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

NOGO

Since the degree of gnosticity (certainty) depends on the degree of faith then the axes that you are talking about are not independent.

The consequences of that is that the four categories defined are not independent.

There is no such thing as an agnotic-theist.
It is like saying "I don't know if God exists but I believe in Him."

The theist and the atheist both believe that they know the truth concerning the existance of God. Therefore tagging the qualifier agnostic to such people is contradictory.

In conclusion there are three and not four classes here. Theist, atheist, agnostic.
Put more simply - Yes, No, don't know.

Princess of Peace

Of course, it is quite possible to say, "I am not certain whether God exists, but I'll act as if I believe in him." Or you could say, "I am not certain whether God exists, but I'll act as if I don't believe in him." These are agnostic-theist, and agnostic-atheist, respectively.

Or, more realistically, I'm not certain whether alien beings from another planet are currently visiting our world and abducting people, I mean, how can I KNOW? But I'll act as if they aren't, at least until I have better evidence either way.

Albion

The oiginal specified "with respect to the Christian God." I assume you can be a theist but agnostic as far as which particular manifestation of the deity you believe in. There seem to be a lot of choices out there.

HelenM

Thanks for sharing that, David!

love
Helen

Eudaimonist

I've known people who would say this. For instance, someone might say: "I can't establish rational certainty of God's existence by any proof, but I believe in Him anyway."

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]</p>

Eudaimonist

Yup.