Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dark Jedi · 03-19-2003, 10:19 PM

Hope I didn't kill the mood! Please, continue. I'm just making sure things remain civil.

Kosh · 03-20-2003, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dark Jedi
Hope I didn't kill the mood! Please, continue. I'm just making sure things remain civil.

I'm too busy (and tired) digging out from 3 feet of snow to try and teach Xians how to think logically.

Angrillori · 03-22-2003, 05:32 PM

Carrie, I decided I had to finally de-lurk (after a year or so) because you seemed to almost mirror myself. In fact, having come from a former ICoC background, I had the same thoughts on 'a better plan.'

And you know what, you're spot-on. The plan to salvation (you know the studies--Discipleship, the Word, etc. etc. etc.) was horribly ineffeicient. Even this whole universe experiment seemed remarkably unproductive. I mean, you'd think with all the knowledge and power in the universe you'd hit your goals 100% every time!

Admittedly, I'm making some assumptions as to what goals the plan was trying to meet, but I don't think I can be far off. (Please let me know if you think the goals are out of whack. I also come from a grass-roots activist background and know you start planning campaigns with your goals, list your assets, then determine your overall strategy, finally tactics to implement that strategy.)
We'll start with:
my goal is to be worshipped (or loved) by as many beings of my creation as possible, of their free will.

My assets include:
Omnipotence (ability to do anything)
Omniscience (ability to know everything)
These include then,
Miracles at will
Ability to communicate directly with any beings I do create
Foreknowledge

Setting these up as my goals, my strategy would be to let _every_ being know my own personal love and affection for them.

My tactics would be to create each individual in a setting which I (through my foreknowledge) know with certainty will cause them to freely choose to worship or love me. Wow, that was easy! And 100% success!

OR (Wow, I must really rock, two plans better than God's in one day!)

I could emblazon on each person's skin, as they are born, a short paragraph: "I am the Lord your God. I want you to worship and love me of your own free choice. Nothing bad will happen to you if you choose not to worship or love me, but, blessings will come if you do choose to worship or love me. "(For all those that say this wouldn't be a free choice then, how is this less free than our current: do this and live, don't do this and die choice?)

Of course, if I want to ensure that these created beings do no evil or harm, I simply make a physical law that prevents it. (If such is a thing, then I can do it, remember, omnipotent=do any_thing_.)

Or, before any panties get in a bundle, I could just add on this birth tattoo, "By the way, in each situation you shall do unto your fellows as you would have done to you, were you in their situation. This will be enforced."

OR
I could create a bunch of sentient beings in a setting I foreknow they won't worship me. Later, when what I already knew will happen happens, and they don't worship me, I'll kill them all but a handful. Then, when even that bunch doesn't worship me
I could send strange visions to a couple of dozen individuals in a tiny corner of a tremendous world filled with beings I created and allow them to write down snippets to be passed along that hint I may exist, and threaten any who don't manage to worship me with fires and eternal pain. I could also spur them on to allow tremendous atrocities, and some rather nonsensical traditions. Then when I don't see that working, send another of these beings, who is also myself, to refresh the message that they shall worship me or suffer forever. I'll then make sure that the events of my return are cryptically recorded and misused for centuries to cause more pain and suffering amongst those I want to worship me.
Oh wait. That seems to be the inefficient plan we have now. Woops, it sounded so good.

Kosh · 03-22-2003, 06:27 PM

Now, just why would God want everyone to love him? An omniscient, omnipotent God would have to be the epitomy of self actualization.....

Angrillori · 03-23-2003, 01:09 PM

Heh, true.

So then why does he have a plan in the first place?

What IS the goal?

Any A-Team fans out there? I can see the big guy smoking a cigar, sitting back in his chair like Hannibal Smith: "I love it when a plan comes together!...Oh wait....did the plan come together? What was I trying to do in the first place? Doggone it all!"

Carrie · 03-23-2003, 02:15 PM

Angrillori,

Hey that sounds like a great plan to me! Makes much more sense. Glad you have de-lurked.

Calzaer · 03-23-2003, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Gal 1:1 - Unless the Greek language is very different from what I posted, this verse explicitly states that Jesus sent Paul as an Apostle. The way that he appeals to authority is by stating that Jesus sent him.

Jesus sent me, too! My proof is that I wrote it in a letter to my buddy.

03-22-2003, 05:32 PM	#73
Angrillori Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A world less bright without WinAce. Posts: 7,482	Thanks to Carrie, no longer a lurker Carrie, I decided I had to finally de-lurk (after a year or so) because you seemed to almost mirror myself. In fact, having come from a former ICoC background, I had the same thoughts on 'a better plan.' And you know what, you're spot-on. The plan to salvation (you know the studies--Discipleship, the Word, etc. etc. etc.) was horribly ineffeicient. Even this whole universe experiment seemed remarkably unproductive. I mean, you'd think with all the knowledge and power in the universe you'd hit your goals 100% every time! Admittedly, I'm making some assumptions as to what goals the plan was trying to meet, but I don't think I can be far off. (Please let me know if you think the goals are out of whack. I also come from a grass-roots activist background and know you start planning campaigns with your goals, list your assets, then determine your overall strategy, finally tactics to implement that strategy.) We'll start with: my goal is to be worshipped (or loved) by as many beings of my creation as possible, of their free will. My assets include: Omnipotence (ability to do anything) Omniscience (ability to know everything) These include then, Miracles at will Ability to communicate directly with any beings I do create Foreknowledge Setting these up as my goals, my strategy would be to let _every_ being know my own personal love and affection for them. My tactics would be to create each individual in a setting which I (through my foreknowledge) know with certainty will cause them to freely choose to worship or love me. Wow, that was easy! And 100% success! OR (Wow, I must really rock, two plans better than God's in one day!) I could emblazon on each person's skin, as they are born, a short paragraph: "I am the Lord your God. I want you to worship and love me of your own free choice. Nothing bad will happen to you if you choose not to worship or love me, but, blessings will come if you do choose to worship or love me. "(For all those that say this wouldn't be a free choice then, how is this less free than our current: do this and live, don't do this and die choice?) Of course, if I want to ensure that these created beings do no evil or harm, I simply make a physical law that prevents it. (If such is a thing, then I can do it, remember, omnipotent=do any_thing_.) Or, before any panties get in a bundle, I could just add on this birth tattoo, "By the way, in each situation you shall do unto your fellows as you would have done to you, were you in their situation. This will be enforced." OR I could create a bunch of sentient beings in a setting I foreknow they won't worship me. Later, when what I already knew will happen happens, and they don't worship me, I'll kill them all but a handful. Then, when even that bunch doesn't worship me I could send strange visions to a couple of dozen individuals in a tiny corner of a tremendous world filled with beings I created and allow them to write down snippets to be passed along that hint I may exist, and threaten any who don't manage to worship me with fires and eternal pain. I could also spur them on to allow tremendous atrocities, and some rather nonsensical traditions. Then when I don't see that working, send another of these beings, who is also myself, to refresh the message that they shall worship me or suffer forever. I'll then make sure that the events of my return are cryptically recorded and misused for centuries to cause more pain and suffering amongst those I want to worship me. Oh wait. That seems to be the inefficient plan we have now. Woops, it sounded so good.

03-23-2003, 01:09 PM	#75
Angrillori Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A world less bright without WinAce. Posts: 7,482	True, but... Heh, true. So then why does he have a plan in the first place? What IS the goal? Any A-Team fans out there? I can see the big guy smoking a cigar, sitting back in his chair like Hannibal Smith: "I love it when a plan comes together!...Oh wait....did the plan come together? What was I trying to do in the first place? Doggone it all!"

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03-19-2003, 10:19 PM	#71
Dark Jedi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 4,666	Hope I didn't kill the mood! Please, continue. I'm just making sure things remain civil.

03-22-2003, 06:27 PM	#74
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	Now, just why would God want everyone to love him? An omniscient, omnipotent God would have to be the epitomy of self actualization.....

03-23-2003, 02:15 PM	#76
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	Angrillori, Hey that sounds like a great plan to me! Makes much more sense. Glad you have de-lurked.

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