Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RevDahlia · 07-03-2003, 11:58 AM

After having read, and fumed over, the thread on the Tranquility Bay reeducation camp , to which teens are shuttled if their parents deem them unruly enough, I stumbled across the following article:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...ting02-ON.html

Quote:

Associated Press
Jul. 2, 2003 10:40 AM

JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. - An employee shot and killed three co-workers and wounded five others at a manufacturing plant on the outskirts of the capital, then drove into town and killed himself in a confrontation with police, authorities said.

I got to thinking about how teenagers are viewed these days, and concluded that surely, were that manufacturing plant worker a kid who shot up a school, this article would be national news. The shooter would not be just a random nutjob, but a symbol of what's wrong with an entire generation. His parents would be raked over the coals, his CD collection would be combed through for Marilyn Manson and Eminem records, et cetera et cetera a'la Columbine.

Teenagers are viewed as being inherently more dangerous, corrupt and out-of-control than adults are. That assumption fuels grave injustices, like Tranquility Bay and California's recently passed Prop. 21 which, among other things, grants DAs, not judges, the right to determine whether teens are tried as adults.

There is compelling evidence that teens actually behave more or less like the adults who surround them do, and that they are not more promiscuous, more violent, or more drug-addled than the grownups. In fact, in many cases teens are significantly better-behaved.

So what gives here?

Blixy Sticks · 07-03-2003, 12:10 PM

That's a very good point. If the freaks that shot up Columbine were shipped off to Tranquility Bay, the massacre that occurred at their hands would have been avoided.

Cicero · 07-03-2003, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blixy Sticks
That's a very good point. If the freaks that shot up Columbine were shipped off to Tranquility Bay, the massacre that occurred at their hands would have been avoided.

Perhaps if their parents, OTOH, had paid the slightest attention, those two little savages at Columbine would not have had the chance to complete their plans.

How does a teenager run a pipe threader for days, in his own gargage, without being caught?

To be fair, of course, most families these days are, by necessity, double income...but still...

Blixy Sticks · 07-03-2003, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cicero
Perhaps if their parents, OTOH, had paid the slightest attention, those two little savages at Columbine would not have had the chance to complete their plans.

How does a teenager run a pipe threader for days, in his own gargage, without being caught?

To be fair, of course, most families these days are, by necessity, double income...but still...

Cicero,

I agree with you. I'm just goofin. On the Tranquility Bay Thread, I posted similiar comments, but no one seemed to notice.

I also feel that the merciless bullying of the two kids at Columbine had as much to do with the massacre as did the parental neglect. But that's just my two cents worth.

Cicero · 07-03-2003, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blixy Sticks
I also feel that the merciless bullying of the two kids at Columbine had as much to do with the massacre as did the parental neglect. But that's just my two cents worth.

While the school definitely failed these children, the fact is that children are bullied in every school, and have always been; the lack of self-control by these children implies either a mental defect, or inadequate parenting.

If it was ONE child, I would be more inclined to believe the former.

On the other hand, some moronic high-school coach came on just after the incident, and said that the event could have been prevented if ALL children were forced into sports...as if unatheletic children would NOT be teased MORE in such a case.

Blixy Sticks · 07-03-2003, 12:46 PM

Cicero,

I agree that parental neglect played a part in this tradegy, but I'm convinced that the bullying played a substantial part as well.

I searched the web and came up with this .

Pasted below is an excerpt:

Quote:

Bullying is another hidden element of the culture of violence that contributes to the kind of school violence that happened at Columbine High School. From first hand accounts (Dube, 1999 & Prendergast, 1999) and from the killers own videos (Gibbs & Roche, 1999) we know that Harris and Klebold were repeatedly bullied and subjected to verbal put-downs, leading directly to their plan of violent revenge. The role of bullying in Columbine situation is discussed in more detail later in this article.

Bullying is the most common form of violence in our society, driving the culture of violence. It is behind all child abuse, domestic violence, workplace violence, hate crimes and road rage. Dominating men and women bullies bully adults who are weaker and less powerful. Men bully their female partners, women bully children, older children bully younger children and younger children bully their pets.

Bruce Perry calls this phenomenon the �vortex of violence� (Perry, 1996a). He says that violence always travels from the strongest to the weakest or from the most powerful to the least powerful. People who are the object of violence absorb it, modify it and then pass it on. Young children, who are at the bottom of this vortex, often do not have anyone to pass it on to so they absorb it, accumulate it and wait until they are old enough, big enough, or strong enough to erupt in some dramatic way that hurts other people.

Cicero · 07-03-2003, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blixy Sticks
I agree that parental neglect played a part in this tradegy, but I'm convinced that the bullying played a substantial part as well.

No argument here.

A synopsis:

1. The school failed.
2. The parents failed, for one reason or another.
3. The kids ARE still responsible for their act (well, if they were alive, I mean).
4. Tranquility bay is not the answer to this type of thing. Proper parenting and school reform are. That cannot be bought by paying $40K/year to have your children brutalized professionally...

Blixy Sticks · 07-03-2003, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cicero

1. The school failed.

Agreed

Quote:

Originally posted by Cicero 2. The parents failed, for one reason or another.

Agreed

Quote:

Originally posted by Cicero 3. The kids ARE still responsible for their act (well, if they were alive, I mean).

Agreed

Quote:

Originally posted by Cicero 4. Tranquility bay is not the answer to this type of thing.

Agreed

Quote:

Originally posted by Cicero Proper parenting and school reform are.

Agreed, but it will take even more than that. Read through the link I provided. Bullying is the result of our society's ever increasing preoccupation with violence. Here is another excerpt.

Quote:

Very few people understand the systemic nature of violence. For example, the people who are dealing with school violence aren�t able to design programs that address the non-school elements of violence that cause school violence. They may understand abstractly that child abuse, family violence or community violence contributes to school violence, but they only address the violence that occurs at school. This is true of community agencies as well. They focus only on their part of the problem and no one is looking at the big picture. Part of the problem is that the funding streams from national, state and local sources generally carry a mandate that the agencies address only what they are funded to do. No one is funding an effort to address the problem of violence as a systemic problem. Agencies often have to compete for scarce resources so there usually is little incentive to collaborate to address the systemic causes of violence.

The main reason for this problem is that the majority of the people in this country have difficulty thinking and acting systemically. Robert Kegan from Harvard, in his book, In Over Our Heads, (1994) describes five developmental stages of thinking. His research confirms that more than 70% of the adult population are unable to handle the complexity of modern life, which requires that they are able to think and act systemically. People in stage one often use magical thinking while those in stage two use black/white either/or thinking. When they reach stage three they can begin to see relationships among various systems, but they still see themselves as victimized by these systems.

According to Kegan, in stage four, individuals develop a personal understanding of the systemic nature of all the events of their lives, including how their unresolved family of origin issues influences their present behavior. In stage five, they are able to actually change the systemic forces that are directing their lives. What I have found in my research is that people must be able to apply their understanding of how systems work to their own life before they can see how to change a systemic problem outside of themselves like violence. I will cover this further tomorrow in my Conflict Resolution Workshop because conflict resolution provides an opportunity for people to learn how to make these personal shifts.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cicero That cannot be bought by paying $40K/year to have your children brutalized professionally...

Agreed. Like I said earlier, I was goofin about the Tranquility Bay alternative. I doubt Harris' and Kliebold's parents are the typical parental clientele utilizing the services of Tranquility Bay. I would imagine this is reserved for the ridiculously wealthy.

Hubble head · 07-03-2003, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blixy Sticks
That's a very good point. If the freaks that shot up Columbine were shipped off to Tranquility Bay, the massacre that occurred at their hands would have been avoided.

Or postponed. Freaks are freaks whether society made them or they were born that way. Putting them somewhere people don't have to look at them, understand them and deal with them solves no problems. It is well known to do more harm than good on most humans yet I acknowledge that we still don't seem to have a better way.

The way to make them uncontrollable and detatched is to allow them to feel unloved. The only way to cure a hurting, uncontrollable child is to truly love them. If an adult can't do that for their children then they don't deserve to be a parent.

Loren Pechtel · 07-03-2003, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blixy Sticks
That's a very good point. If the freaks that shot up Columbine were shipped off to Tranquility Bay, the massacre that occurred at their hands would have been avoided.

I was just reading something on places like that. The author was suggesting that such places might *CAUSE* some of the clients to become sociopaths.

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07-03-2003, 12:10 PM	#2
Blixy Sticks Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Until recently, Baghdad Posts: 1,365	That's a very good point. If the freaks that shot up Columbine were shipped off to Tranquility Bay, the massacre that occurred at their hands would have been avoided.

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