Ion

I mean your 'reasoning' is baloney: you are abusing words like 'indicating', 'merely implies', by throwing in your sentiments.
For how these words are being correctly used, open a book on mathematics.
Be careful.

The Apologist

Likewise, your "explanation" is "baloney" (and devoid of any "reasoning" whatsoever!). Please explain well why my reasoning equates to processed meat, and how I abused the aforementioned words. Do those expressions not serve to "soften" my argument by somewhat converting my sentiment to opinionation? After all, Automaton asked how I, specifically, explain the previous theism of many atheists here, but would you not agree that atheism is "comfy-cozy" when compared with theism?

Samhain

"If the whole of natural theology resolves itself into one, simple, though somewhat ambiguous, at least undefined proposition, that the cause or causes of order in the universe probably bear some remote analogy to human intelligence: If this proposition be not capable of extension, variation, or more particular explication: If it affords no inference that affects human life, or can be the source of any action or forbearance: And if the analogy, imperfect as it is, can be carried no farther than to human intelligence; and cannot be transferred, with any appearance of probability, to the other qualities of the mind: If this really be the case, what can the most inquisitive, contemplative and religious man do more than give a plain, philosophical assent to the proposition, as often as it occurs; and believe that the arguments, on which it is established, exceed the objections that lie against it?" -David Hume Dialogues on Natural Religion

Now, if you can even understand that statement, I will assent that you have the power to deal with us here. If you understand that statement, then perhaps you will understand what I'm trying to tell you here, and maybe you'll understand that these arguments have gone on for hundreds upon hundreds upon thousands of years.

Edit: All theists would do well to read and understand Hume's argument.

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Samhain ]</p>

Gemma Therese

Ion,

God created science.

If you cannot possibly understand belief where you cannot prove, then you can never believe in God.

I have never read the book you referred to. You never answere me -- have you ever read Thomas Merton?

Have you ever met a cloistered religious?

I would ask you keep you keep your sarcasm to yourself in future posts.

In God's Love,

Gemma Therese

Gemma Therese

Ion wrote:

&lt;&lt;For how these words are being correctly used, open a book on mathematics.&gt;&gt;

Ion, there is more to life than logic and reason.

I hope, someday, you realize this.

You have my prayers.

In God's Love

Automaton

Prove to me, without a glimmer of a doubt, that the sun will rise tomorrow.
I can declare it with the same conviction that my knowledge of logic is sound.
I disagree, but this raises the question why you are not a deist or agnostic deist yourself? Are you merely intellectually dishonest?
Irrelevence. Your original statement was that atheists contort reasoning to fit with their presupposition, and I was showing that this is false.
Well, duh.
Morality is objective; it is not dependent on any being's will or essence.
We are not children, we do not need animaginary punishment/reward complex such as Santa to make us good.
Uh, you do know there are such things as police, government and society? But then again, we do not subscribe that mere threats of torture account for morality.
I don't know where you live, but I don't consider under 10% to be a majority.
You have not shown yourself to be anything otherwise...
Oh yeah, atheism is all the rage now. It's all the kids talk about at the playground.
So is heliocentricism. What's your point?
That's why George W. Bush's approval ratings are way down and most Americans would not vote for a theist as president.
It is so convenient of you to disbelieve in Santa.

Automaton

Gemma Therese: How long will you continue to ignore my objections?

Kassiana

Heya, Gemma! Just for your knowledge, numerous people here believe in Gods, but there's only one other Roman Catholic here I know of. I'm a Pagan myself, so I don't believe in your concept of God, nor do I desire to. And your posts are not making me desire to either, in case that was your goal.

Also, unless you have objective proof that your God concept is the one and only and truly exists outside your mind and the minds of believers, no atheist/agnostic will accept it either. Trust me. And you don't. No believer, including myself, does. Give it up unless you do.

Echo

No, you do not hope that Ion realizes this. You hope that Ion comes to share your beliefs with respect to whatever deity you profess to believe in and worship.

I suspect if Ion held some religious/superstitious beliefs that differed from yours, you would attempt to use the very "logic and science" that you eschew in order to demonstrate that his beliefs were erroneous.

Bill Snedden

Oh my gosh! You've finally discovered it!
The true cause of atheism!!

I never realized it until just now, but it's oh so easy to live in a country where the majority of residents believe that you are some kind of evil nut and where even the highest leaders feel safe in reviling you and declaring your patriotism and citizenship questionable.

It's just so inviting and easy to abandon all of the cherished beliefs of your childhood and then, when you tell your family and friends, it's even easier to deal with their rejection and constant preaching.

I'm so glad that all I have to do is ignore the constant, vicious attacks upon my character by so many loving Christians and their attempts to steal away what little civil rights I'm still allowed to posses. It is, after all, certainly easier than just being a part of the crowd.

It's a relief, too, not to have an easy and simple answer to morality. Being a responsible moral agent and adhering to a humanistic moral code is so much easier than following directions written down in an ancient book. (I hate directions, don't you? It's so much easier to figure things out on your own, without any help, than it is to just follow directions, isn't it?)

Above all, it was so easy to reject the simple, uncomplicated worldview of my youth and recognize that I have to be responsible for myself; that no angels will be there to protect me should I stumble and fall.

I don't know why I never saw it before! How much easier it is to realize that death is the end. None of that oh-so-difficult to deal with eternal life for me!

Yes, Apologist, I must say you've outdone yourself this time. It will no doubt be hard for many atheists to agree that it's just downright easier to think for yourself rather than just do what you're told, but I'm sure that the Truth (tm) will win the day...

Regards,

Bill Snedden