Infinity Lover

To my honest knowledge Amie would never force her beliefs on others, and the suggestion that she would do such a thing if the law allowed it is pretty lame.

That she tries to defend her beliefs, and gets clubbered in a thread such as this is kind of unavoidable. But I just hope that posters here realize how counterproductive it is, to not surpress the urge to include a condescending mocking untertone. Besides selfgratification, and ticking her off, I strongly doubt it accomplishes anything.

Mad Kally

I was not suggesting any such thing. I told you what the law is here in California after you said she wouldn't be teaching miracles in classrooms. Then I went on to talk about my mother who is totally psycho.

I do not think Amie is the type of xian that would attempt anything like that. As a matter of fact, She's one of the nicest ones I've met.

[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]</p>

Vorkosigan

Hear, hear. Save the abuse for nuts and theist posters who act in bad faith. This thread has really gone nowhere, and may only result in the loss of a fine theist member of our forum. Maybe we should consider closing this thread.

Vorkosigan

Mad Kally

Hear, hear.

Please read my last post.

Infinity Lover

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post M.K.

I guess saying "no, California law forbids it", too easily led to the conclusion you were saying "But if California law didn't forbid it... (finish sentence by your own discresion)"

My bad.

Biff the unclean

Biff you're not even remotely trying to listen to what I am writing without ridiculing are you?
It isn't really fair of you to insist that ridiculous statements be given respect simple because you count them as religious.

please...add a few miracles to the world and there is no way to know anything?
That's right, there would be no way to know anything. If there were such a thing as a miracle then there could be no such thing as the impossible. As the world stands it is possible to know things because there is such a thing as the impossible. It is impossible for 2+2 to equal anything but 4. It is impossible that while you are driving to the mall to go Christmas shopping that you will suddenly turn into a chicken, a Rhode Island Red. But without the impossible all bets are off. You could never be sure of anything.

there is no arguing this point with you, you seem very set in your views..its really sad you think this way.
So what are you saying here? That you aren't set in your views? That you are changing your mind and accepting the real world for what it is? That's great, congratulations, I'm very happy for you.

besides I never claimed to "know" I claimed to believe in miracles. Huge difference Biff.
But not a very flattering one. If you believe something that you can't possibly know is true you are practicing self deception. Sad, very very sad.
I don't think anyone can really "know" just like you can't possibly "know" there is no God.
Not that puerile chestnut again. We went over that already. If I tell you something is true, is a fact, and I have no way of knowing that it is a fact then I am lying. If I say that there is a God and I have no way to prove it then I would be telling a vile lie. And, frankly, I'm not so immoral that I would do a despicable thing like that.

I don't see people miraculously healed on the same level as some melted crayons Biff.
You won't find anyone miraculously healed at Lourdes either, only stories you won't be able to check.
What is the difference of seeing Jesus in a taco or some poor deluded little girl, and her playmates seeing the Virgin at the garbage dump. That's what it was you know before they cleaned it up, the town dump.

There was a story back in my hometown in Ireland when I was a kid. One of my neighbors were to Lourdes-problem with "the change" don't cha know. And she was there waiting and waiting for the "service of healing" to begin. She's having a hot flash and spies an empty wheelchair so she sits down a bit, until she feels herself again. In the mean time the Mass began. After a while she thinks 'It's wrong for me to be in this chair. I'd better get up and let someone who needs it sit." So she stands up from the wheel chair and some Spanish women who were standing nearby scream. "She's healed, she's healed!!" The crowd became so excited over the miracle that they mobbed her trying to get close to the blessed happening. She was knocked to the ground and her leg was broken.
Came home from Lourdes in a wheelchair she did.

Amie

I tend to have respect others beliefs regardless of the fact I may not agree. You don't. to each his own...

we also covered this. by your own thinking then you believe there is no God, you believe there are no miracles. You can't possibly "know" none of us can so i guess you are practicing self deception Biff...

Oh this is ridiculous. I believe in God, that is what I say. By using the term "lie" that means I intend to deceive and I do not. It is simply my belief...

hey if you want to think people are immoral for believing in God, Knock yourself out Biff...

This is going nowhere...

Mad Kally

That must be what I like about you. The xians who raised me and the people of their church never had any respect for me or anyone with even the slightest different point of view. (They still don't) It was a scary childhood.

Fiach

Belief in gods, magic/miracles, and "supernatural" is morally neutral. All of the above, God, magic, and angels are defined as not having substance, not being composed of energy, existing only some ethereal realm perhaps of ideas. Supernatural means Not-natural. What is natural? Natural is everything that exists. If it exists, it is natural for it to exist. So supernatural should not exist.

There is no evidence for anything unnatural or supernatural. Not a single scientifically documented miracle. James Randi has offerred £1 million (or perhaps US Dollars) to anyone who can furnish evidence of an event that defies natural laws. So far nobody has won.

Earlier Amie tried to separate Magic from Miracles. I see no difference. Each is an event occurring against or in spite of the laws of nature. Both magic and miracles are usually preceded by conjuring, the utterence of certain key words. Whether one says, "Abra cadabra" or "In the Name of Jesus" is still conjuring. The magical event/miracle occurs after the world conjuring. I see no difference apart from Miracles simply being Christian Magic.

Belief in God is understandable for people who want explanations for the world around us. 100,000 years ago we knew little if any science. So we wondered at what makes a spring bubble up. What makes a volcano blow its stack? What makes grass grow? What makes my hand scratch my itching bum? What makes thoughts in my head?

We didn't know and had no way to even investigate. So we postulated that invisible "things" operated all of the above, and called them spirits. Spirits made our bodies work and did our thinking for us. When we died, our spirit must have gone somewhere? We later combinde many minor spirits into specialised Gods (fire god, rain god, Mother Earth, God of the seas). And still later combined them all into a composite God with human personality (or Three).

Yet while this fantasies gave us explanations and made us feel good, we had not a shred of evidence to support the idea of god(s). Science gradually explained physical phenomena: gravity, river flow from higher to lower levels, rain from clouds of evapouration, how muscles contract with actin and myosin fibrils with an electical flux of Calcium from Calcium channels trigger by an action potential from a motor nerve ending. We explained how the brain controls our limbs, and in the last decade the brain pattern and electical circuitry of thoughts themselves. We explained the evolution of various animal species from one celled creatures.

We explained the events after the Big Bang, the formation of particles and atoms. We explained the first protosuns as hydrogen collapsed starting nuclear fusion furnaces to make all of the elements (Carbon, Oxygen, Nitrogen, Iron, Calcium, Sodium, Potassium, and the old Hydrogen) to make third generation suns, planets, and us.

So what is left are three events not YET explained. 1. The Big Bang itself, 2. How the amino acids combined to form the first DNA. 3. How the replicating and mutating DNA formed the first cell membrane (first cells).

Those desperate to believe in God, cling to these as God's creative act. I say to wait. We explained a million of God's other supposed creations, we may yet explain these as well. Meanwhile we can be honest and say "I don't know how the first cell formed." Or I could make up a fantasy explanation, "Dagda created Earth and the first life." Or "God (Joe Hovah) made the first cells. But my "I don't know" is more honest. They have no evidence for their god apart from the desire for there to be one.

Fiach

Amie

Hi Kally
I am sorry to hear you had a negative childhood...
I'll never understand the reasons behind people making other peole feel that their non religious beliefs are "wrong"...It is difficult for me to understand why there appears to be a negative stigma attached to the word "atheist". What is so negative about a group of people who do not share in a God belief??

However I understand what you are saying since my 15 year old nephew is staying with me right now because my brother (his dad) kicked him out of the house due to the fact that he does not believe..even after he told his dad "I don't think people who believe in god are stupid, I just don't have a reason to believe in god"
so for a family of catholics we finally have a token atheist in the group to spice things up
I really feel for him and I am not sure how to comfort him since I do believe in God. He does not know any atheists at all. All I do is tell him that I love him and that I feel his dad is being a dick.

The thought of throwing your child out of the house because their beliefs do not conform to your own makes me sick. I am really disappointed in my brother...At least he is taking my nephew to dinner tonight so they can talk it over.
I hope he realizes what a mistake he is making. Children should be loved unconditionally...
Amie~