Freethought & Rationalism Archive

manhattan · 02-13-2002, 06:50 AM

I'm imagining all those poor sawmill workers, suddenly out of work. But at least 2x4s would actually be 2x4. I guess.

MOJO-JOJO · 02-13-2002, 07:59 AM

Uh-huh...I see...an Argument from Creation disguised in sheep's clothing. Imagine a world just close enough to the Sun to be warmed, but not far enough away to be a snowball, with a perfect atmosphere to sustain life, with thousands upon thousands of interdependant animal and plant species inhabiting it, and one of those species just happens to have advanced technical, cognitive, intellectual and social abilities.

But alas, this species can not see the forest from the trees, and they have developed all sorts of chance causes and theories for these "obviously" divine occurrences. They are simply "fools" that do not see that only a magical, supernatural, invisible ghost could create such "miracles of nature". Yes, our trees only fall over and rot in the woods. But if they instead separated into perfectly cut cross-sections when they fell over....THEN maybe we would see that only the daily divine interaction of a mythical creator could be at work in such a world.

Maybe people in such a world would also be rejuvenated from death and decomposition three days later and ascend into the skies, hmmmm??? I guess we would come up with some simple, natural scientific explanation for this, right? Well....in fact this doesn't happen in our world, so there is nothing observed that requires an explanation outside of that which we would expect to occur under the natural physical laws of this universe (other than hearsay stories that can not be corroborated).

Here's a tough one for theists and mythicists to do....imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try, no hell below us, above us only sky. Imagine all the people living for today and in THIS world....not some imaginary, denominational-only, make believe world they "hope" exists AFTER this life.

~~~as another Poster says, "From Allah to Zeus, they are all imaginary".

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]

Panta Pei · 02-13-2002, 08:05 AM

You know, Oz never did give nuthin' to the Tinman...

Francois Tremblay · 02-13-2002, 08:39 AM

I think MOJO-JOJO found the answer of our little riddler. As I pointed out, such a situation is completely unreal - and so is the notion of divine creation... I was on the right track after all.

MOJO-JOJO · 02-14-2002, 09:44 AM

BTW, I like this Parable of the Tress much better;

The Trees
by Rush

There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples [realists] want more sunlight
And the oaks [theists] ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.

So the maples formed a union [the Council for Secular Humanism]
And demanded equal rights.
"These oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.

Francois Tremblay · 02-14-2002, 10:18 AM

That's a horrible parable. Sounds socialist : violently prune the most successful trees so that the others can have more light. Your analogy with rights is misguided : by taking away the rights of some, we imperil the rights of others by setting a dangerous legal precedent.

MOJO-JOJO · 02-14-2002, 11:49 AM

Okay...okay...so it's a little too anarchist for some. It was written by some Canadians, what do you expect

(Vive le Guerre!!)

Let's replace "Hatchet, Axe and Saw" with "Reason, Thinking and the Pen". N'est-ce pas??

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]

MortalWombat · 02-14-2002, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franc28:
That's a horrible parable. Sounds socialist : violently prune the most successful trees so that the others can have more light. Your analogy with rights is misguided : by taking away the rights of some, we imperil the rights of others by setting a dangerous legal precedent.

So we shouldn't have taken away Southern whites' "right" to not serve blacks in restaurants? Or their "right" to sit in the front of the bus? Or their "right" to have all white schools?

Francois Tremblay · 02-14-2002, 02:21 PM

Of course not. Everyone should be free to discriminate as he desires. But your inherent premise is a bit misguided : it is not individuals who promoted discrmination the most, but government laws themselves. The government did indeed "prune the rights" of the black people, much like the poem.

MortalWombat · 02-14-2002, 02:31 PM

Uh... OK <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

02-13-2002, 07:59 AM	#22
MOJO-JOJO Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Nashville, USA Posts: 949	Uh-huh...I see...an Argument from Creation disguised in sheep's clothing. Imagine a world just close enough to the Sun to be warmed, but not far enough away to be a snowball, with a perfect atmosphere to sustain life, with thousands upon thousands of interdependant animal and plant species inhabiting it, and one of those species just happens to have advanced technical, cognitive, intellectual and social abilities. But alas, this species can not see the forest from the trees, and they have developed all sorts of chance causes and theories for these "obviously" divine occurrences. They are simply "fools" that do not see that only a magical, supernatural, invisible ghost could create such "miracles of nature". Yes, our trees only fall over and rot in the woods. But if they instead separated into perfectly cut cross-sections when they fell over....THEN maybe we would see that only the daily divine interaction of a mythical creator could be at work in such a world. Maybe people in such a world would also be rejuvenated from death and decomposition three days later and ascend into the skies, hmmmm??? I guess we would come up with some simple, natural scientific explanation for this, right? Well....in fact this doesn't happen in our world, so there is nothing observed that requires an explanation outside of that which we would expect to occur under the natural physical laws of this universe (other than hearsay stories that can not be corroborated). Here's a tough one for theists and mythicists to do....imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try, no hell below us, above us only sky. Imagine all the people living for today and in THIS world....not some imaginary, denominational-only, make believe world they "hope" exists AFTER this life. ~~~as another Poster says, "From Allah to Zeus, they are all imaginary". [ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]</p>

02-14-2002, 09:44 AM	#25
MOJO-JOJO Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Nashville, USA Posts: 949	BTW, I like this Parable of the Tress much better; <strong>The Trees by Rush</strong> There is unrest in the forest, There is trouble with the trees, For the maples [realists] want more sunlight And the oaks [theists] ignore their pleas. The trouble with the maples, (And they're quite convinced they're right) They say the oaks are just too lofty And they grab up all the light. But the oaks can't help their feelings If they like the way they're made. And they wonder why the maples Can't be happy in their shade. So the maples formed a union [the Council for Secular Humanism] And demanded equal rights. "These oaks are just too greedy; We will make them give us light." Now there's no more oak oppression, For they passed a noble law, And the trees are all kept equal By hatchet, axe, and saw.

02-14-2002, 11:49 AM	#27
MOJO-JOJO Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Nashville, USA Posts: 949	Okay...okay...so it's a little too anarchist for some. It was written by some Canadians, what do you expect (Vive le Guerre!!) Let's replace "Hatchet, Axe and Saw" with "Reason, Thinking and the Pen". N'est-ce pas?? [ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]</p>

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02-13-2002, 06:50 AM	#21
manhattan Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: New York, NY, USA Posts: 400	I'm imagining all those poor sawmill workers, suddenly out of work. But at least 2x4s would actually be 2x4. I guess.

02-13-2002, 08:05 AM	#23
Panta Pei Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: in the middle of things Posts: 722	You know, Oz never did give nuthin' to the Tinman...

02-13-2002, 08:39 AM	#24
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	I think MOJO-JOJO found the answer of our little riddler. As I pointed out, such a situation is completely unreal - and so is the notion of divine creation... I was on the right track after all.

02-14-2002, 10:18 AM	#26
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	That's a horrible parable. Sounds socialist : violently prune the most successful trees so that the others can have more light. Your analogy with rights is misguided : by taking away the rights of some, we imperil the rights of others by setting a dangerous legal precedent.

02-14-2002, 02:21 PM	#29
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	Of course not. Everyone should be free to discriminate as he desires. But your inherent premise is a bit misguided : it is not individuals who promoted discrmination the most, but government laws themselves. The government did indeed "prune the rights" of the black people, much like the poem.

02-14-2002, 02:31 PM	#30
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	Uh... OK <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

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