Jobar

luvluv, allow me to also recommend Language In Thought and Action by the Hon. Dr. S.I. Hayakawa, long-time senator from Hawaii, and one of the founders of the science of semantics- where rhetoric and philosophy meet information science. Hayakawa is one of my heroes.

Family Man

You haven't even demonstrated how it is possible. If you review my opening posts, I gave a number of quotes that demonstrates the expectations set up by the Christian religion. I have no expectations. Hence, my conclusions are not being effected by a self-fulfilling prophecy.

All you have done is to justify your expectations. You would need to demonstrate that you have no expectations, but your own testimony is that you do have expectations -- you have experiences all the time. Furthermore, your own biases necessarily makes your testimony suspect. You don't need to provide evidence; you must demonstrate that the personal experiences described in the opening post could not set up a self-fulfilling prophecy. You need a logical argument, not an evidential one. You are attacking the problem all wrong.

It isn't a pre-existent belief. It is a belief based on the testimony and words of Christians themselves. I'm not pulling this out of my hat.

That is a rather arbitary requirement, and a completely unnecessary one.

Of course I "ignored" it. Unless you personally are immune to all the societal influences around you, you can't claim that you weren't aware of the claims of divine intervention. I'm an atheist and I'm aware of it too, and I frequently muse about how certain experiences would fit into the God talks to me mindset promoted by much of Christianity. I don't succumb to that nonsense because I'm aware of the fallacious nature of it. It is not a defense to say that my personal experience is a shield against the charge personal experience is bad evidence. Your arguments are worthless and I treat them as such.

You could certainly falsify my hypothesis. All you have to show is that the societal expectations that Christianity frequently promotes do not lead to self-fulfilling prophecies. But don't confuse the idea that you can't falsify my hypothesis with the idea that my hypothesis isn't falsifiable. That you can't falsify my hypothesis indicates it is a correct hypothesis.

Is some respects you are correct here: in growing up in a democratic society you will have a tendency to favor what you are taught to be good. But self-fulfilling prophecies work on people perceptions, and not all arguments for democracies are based on people's perceptions. Remember, I am not arguing that self-fulfilling prophecies invalidate all arguments for Christianity, only those based on personal perceptions of experiences. You are comparing apples and oranges with your democracy example.

I disagree that faith is a virtue. I see nothing in faith that adds value to life. It is not virtue to encourage people to believe something without evidence.

I agree that hope is a virtue, if what is hoped for is worthwhile. I hope for many things. I simply don't hope for a life after this one. This life has value in and of itself, and I don't need another to validate this one.

I disagree.


I do not selfishly hope for eternal life, and I am quite comfortable with the meaning of my own life. I do not need or want your approval. And of course I don't believe. Did I ever say otherwise?

Blatantly untrue. By that logic, if someone offers to bring me a million dollars tomorrow if I give him one hundred today I should give it to them.

So would I.

Actually, it is the reverse that is true. Essentially, you're promoting Pascal's wager here which is the height of not taking a risk. Remember, if I'm wrong I get a eternity in hell. Tell me again what risk you're taking.

No, I didn't. I just sensed anger on your part, that's all. And I think that anger had to do with my arguments, not my attitude.

Uh, and you accuse me of condescension?

My arguments are quite sound.

luvluv

Family Man:

Didn't I say that when I FIRST heard God speak, I was not expecting it? Didn't I say that the brand of Christianity I was first exposed to did not believe that God still spoke to man? Didn't I say that I personally thought that people who claimed God spoke to them were arrogant and off-putting. When I FIRST heard from God, I was NOT expecting it.

What logical argument would demonstrate that I am not undergoing a self-fulfilling prophecy? The only thing I can do is demonstrate to you where my personal experience deviates from the classical self-fulfilling prophecy.

I don't think it is. Do you even know, from the standpoint of clinical psychology, what characterizes or manifests an actual sfp? Do you know, from a clinical standpoint, what would disqualify an experience from being a sfp? This is not a rhetorical question, I'd actually like to know.

This is why I ask. Yes, the fact that I am aware that there are claims of divine intervention is one piece of data. But given my personal misgivings about God speaking to people which came from a deep disdain for people who claim that God speaks to them and from the religous teachings of my first church, don't you think you should take a closer look at my specific case? I think it is actually possible that you are not suffering from an sfp. I think you are just being stubborn. You know how you want to classify any arguments for theism, and you aren't even going to attempt to deal with any evidence to the contrary.

It seems to me, Family Man, that you have to know enough psychology to assess whether experiences like mine actually fit the profile of an sfp. Really, when I first heard God's voice, I was not expecting to hear God talk to me anymore than you are right now. I happened to believe that God existed, but I no more expected to hear from Him than you do. Why can you give yourself enough credit to believe that you personally can overcome the societal belief that God speaks to people, but somehow I cannot?

That's somewhat silly. I'm a walking falsification to your hypothesis. I don't know, and don't claim to know, if all the religious experiences other Christians have had have been real. That doesn't bother me. I know, personally, that my experiences do not even remotely fit inton the category of sfp. I don't see how someone could have an sfp for an occurance that they were not expecting and did not want. If you can show ANY evidence that this occurs with sfp's, then maybe you have an inkling of a case, at least in your own mind. For my part, I would still know you to be wrong, but at least your assesment of my case would then seem less deliberately obtuse.

This, though, again is falacious. I am not arguing that all religious experiences are authentic. I am arguing that MY religious experiences are authentic. All I have to do to falsify your hypothesis vis a vis my experiences is prove that I PERSONALLY did not have the expectations necessary for an sfp. And I did not. You can, of course, call me a liar on this point, which would be more intellectually honest than simply ignoring this repeated evidence against your claim.

Nothing could falsify your claim, Family Man, if you are unwilling to assess specific incidents. You don't falsify BROAD CATEGORIES. No one can falsify the notion that "Christianity sets up societal expectations that lead to sfp's." (And no one really needs to, until you systematically demonstrate that it does).That's not how science works. Your hypothesis sets up a GENERAL expectation that can be falsified by PARTICULARS. You attempt to falsify the notion that gravity pulls everything down at the same rate by testing it with PARTICULARS (say, a bowling ball and a feather) in a vaccum. If your "law" doesn't apply to specific incidences then it is not a law at all. If my experience does not fit into the category of an sfp, then possibly many others that you are not aware of do not fit into an sfp either. But I really question whether you are willing to do enough homework to put any meat onto your assertion. Because this is all your statements on this regard amount to, in all honesty and fairness Family Man. It's just a big anectdotal "I say so." with no evidence or research.

I fully admit that religious experiences are not useful as evidence to non-believers. However, my experiences are real, and I don't believe anyone with any actual knowledge of psychology would say that they neatly fit into the category of an sfp. Even if they didn't believe my claims for a second, they'd at least come up with a more competent counter-explanation than "your society believes God talks to people, therefore your belief that God talks to you is an sfp."

I. HAVE. EVIDENCE. You don't, and that's fair. But I do. I don't ask people to believe anything without evidence. But I do encourage them to act on evidence that seems sufficient to them. When I was young, I believed I would go to college. I had no evidence that I would, in fact much of the financial evidence suggested otherwise. But I believed anyway. When I have children, I believe they will lead happy, fulfilling lives. I have no evidence of that, but I believe it anyway. The majority of your personal beliefs, you hold beyond the evidence. If you eliminate faith from your life, you wouldn't be able to function.

Well, this assumes that what is hoped for is an extension to life. That is not primarily true, in my case. I hope for a relationship with God, and to with His help to help my fellow man. It is true that my religion promises eternal life, but do you believe that I don't think about this that much? I follow Christianity because I believe that it is the truth. I have the hope that comes from knowing there is a God (the faith precedes the hope).

Huh? All I was saying is, if you can't believe something until you have proof, then you cannot believe that you or any member of your family has any objective value because that hasn't been proven.

I'm risking the only life we both know that we have by spending it entirely in the service of God.


Well, I wasn't angered. I thought you were being a smidge condescending is all. Your arguments had nothing to do with it, it was the way you were diagnosing me as suffering from an sfp via the internet. I'm pretty immune to the point you are trying to make. A wise man said a man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.

You cut and past me as saying:

To which you replied:

But you neglected to cut and paste my ENTIRE comment:

Did you miss that next sentence, or are you just picking fights for no earthly reason whatsoever?

You haven't made an argument. You've made the very questionable assertion that all religious experiences fit neatly into the paradigm of a self-fulfilling prophecy. And if any experience does not appear to fit the sfp, it doesn't matter 'cause it's an sfp anyway.

wordsmyth

Can you describe exactly what "God's voice" sounds like? What precisely did "God" say to you?

luvluv

Not really. It varies. The only thing that follows from each experience is the authority the messages have. I have weird feelings that mean nothing all the time just like everyone else does, but these impressions generally come with a "stamp" that says "This is not just a feeling. This is Me." There have only been a handful of times when I felt that God spoke to me, like in words (which is why I am still suspicious of anyone who acts like God is a blabbermouth, in my experience He speaks very rarely). I couldn't really describe His words, in fact I am not sure that some BS isn't sneaking into my description right now. The only common thing they all have is that air of authority that sets them apart from all of the other weird feelings that everyone always has.

It's been different things. As I said, the most common message is "I'm here" which I sometimes feel in prayer or during very difficult times. In fact, whenever I get really discouraged this impression can be very, very strong. Then there are the general feelings of conviction, which any Christian can tell you about. The sense that God won't let something you did go when you would rather avoid it. Like the general lingering unwanted impression to go apologize to someone when the whole thing is really all their fault. Part of what is God's voice is an inflamed conscience. Most Christians I know testify to this. Fully apart from being in any religious society at all (and I know this because I am still not a regular churchgoer) your conscience goes up about a thousand percent, and you just feel lousy doing the old things you used to do. I couldn't listen to a lot of my old records, I actually felt uncomfortable around people who cursed (and I used to curse a blue streak), I felt a strange sense of indebtedness to poor and homeless people, I could no longer ignore them without it really bothering my conscious. Totally seprate from being judged by any new social group, you just don't feel right doing some of the things you used to think were perfectly okay. Ordinary stuff like that. I'd imagine any theist you talk to would report a very similar story. Then there are the more intense impressions which are divorced from moral or purely devotional content. Abstract impressions that say "Do this" or "Don't do that". I can generally only distinguish that stuff from the weird feelings everybody always gets ocassionally by trying not to listen to them. When I try to ignore these feelings, God sometimes "reinforces" them either by an impression of authority or by a feeling of moral reproach, as if I am disobeying Him by not following Him. It feels like how you would feel if your father or mother told you to do something and you just ignored them. Kinda lousy like that? Like you knew you didn't have to do it, because you're an adult, but you would feel like a heel if you didn't, cause they're your parents? Kinda like that.

Scottyman

Luvluv,

It's also quite possible that you hear voices because of a mental condition. I'm not trying to insult you or show any disrespect but I think the point others have been trying to make including Family Man is it's really difficult for some people to believe you without you being able to produce any proof.

I would like to refer back to an earlier post that I made on the subject. IMO, if there were such thing as angels, I think they would be doing their darndest to talk to me and other non believers. Some people describe this as a voice inside you when you are quiet and not disturbed or distracted. If you take into consideration the number of human beings that have passed in the history of the human race, I think we would all be at our wits end if they could all speak to us. Think about it!

I consider myself to be quite an open minded person, but I have never heard any voices in my head except for my own concious thoughts. I consider myself to be a moral person and wouldn't do anyone any harm. I see however how easy it could be for someone to do bad things and claim the "Devil made me do it". If I had all the voices of my ancestors talking to me I'd probably shoot myself.

Scottyman

Scottyman

Have you thought about having your residence tested for lead or radon?

luvluv

They generally are not "voices", they quite often feel more like stern looks or nodding approval. I don't "hear" a voice saying "You shouldn't have done that" but I "feel" like someone I love and respect is staring at me with their arms folded and a disappointed look on their face. I really couldn't explain it, but I want to assure you there is not a running dialogue going on in that pile of rocks I call a head.

The problem here, folks, is that I'm just not crazy. Not the least little bit. In total honesty, I'm one of the most mentally healthy, happy people I know. For all the people who have had dealings with me before this conversation, have you ever had any notion that I might be mentally unbalanced? I'd like to believe that I am generally pleasant and well-spoken.

I'm pretty sure I'm just not crazy at all. But I believe God communicates his will and His presence to me on a daily basis. Make of that what you will.

luvluv

Well, you know, if God doesn't exist, then of course I'm crazy.

But, if He does, what is so strange about Him making Himself known to people?

So, if you know for a fact that God definitely does not exist, then you are right in thinking that I am deceived, or crazy, or suffering from radiation poisoining, or whatever.

However, if you do not know for a fact that God definitely does not exist, then you might want to make some room for phenomena consistent with His existence.

wordsmyth

[QUOTE]Originally posted by luvluv

wordsmyth: Can you describe exactly what "God's voice" sounds like?

Not really. It varies. The only thing that follows from each experience is the authority the messages have. I have weird feelings that mean nothing all the time just like everyone else does, but these impressions generally come with a "stamp" that says "This is not just a feeling. This is Me."

I’m interested in hearing more about this “stamp” that gives you the impression it is “God” and not “just a feeling”.

There have only been a handful of times when I felt that God spoke to me, like in words (which is why I am still suspicious of anyone who acts like God is a blabbermouth, in my experience He speaks very rarely).

A handful of times??? Considering the importance of "God speaking" to anyone, can you give me at least a ballpark figure as to how many times you believe God has spoken to you? Half a dozen? A dozen? Two dozen?

I couldn't really describe His words, in fact I am not sure that some BS isn't sneaking into my description right now. The only common thing they all have is that air of authority that sets them apart from all of the other weird feelings that everyone always has.

By air of authority do you mean that the voice is loud and commanding??? Is the voice masculine or feminine??? Is God an alto, tenor, soprano, or etc??? Does God speak clearly or possess a lisp or other speech impediment (i.e. to your knowledge have you ever misunderstood God)???

It's been different things. As I said, the most common message is "I'm here" which I sometimes feel in prayer or during very difficult times. In fact, whenever I get really discouraged this impression can be very, very strong.

So are you saying here that it’s not really a voice at all, but more a “feeling”??? I would appreciate some clarification as to whether you have actually heard an audible voice or have just had a “feeling” that God has spoken to you.

Then there are the general feelings of conviction, which any Christian can tell you about. The sense that God won't let something you did go when you would rather avoid it. Like the general lingering unwanted impression to go apologize to someone when the whole thing is really all their fault. Part of what is God's voice is an inflamed conscience. Most Christians I know testify to this.

So you believe that “guilt” is actually “God” speaking to you???

Fully apart from being in any religious society at all (and I know this because I am still not a regular churchgoer) your conscience goes up about a thousand percent, and you just feel lousy doing the old things you used to do. I couldn't listen to a lot of my old records, I actually felt uncomfortable around people who cursed (and I used to curse a blue streak), I felt a strange sense of indebtedness to poor and homeless people, I could no longer ignore them without it really bothering my conscious. Totally seprate from being judged by any new social group, you just don't feel right doing some of the things you used to think were perfectly okay. Ordinary stuff like that. I'd imagine any theist you talk to would report a very similar story.

So, do you believe there cannot be any way to judge right from wrong without God???

Then there are the more intense impressions which are divorced from moral or purely devotional content. Abstract impressions that say "Do this" or "Don't do that". I can generally only distinguish that stuff from the weird feelings everybody always gets ocassionally by trying not to listen to them. When I try to ignore these feelings, God sometimes "reinforces" them either by an impression of authority or by a feeling of moral reproach, as if I am disobeying Him by not following Him.

This seems to imply God is in some way limiting your “free will” when he “reinforces” what is expected of you. At the very least I would say that any impression to “do this” or “don’t do that” is limiting your free will by influencing your decisions.