Freethought & Rationalism Archive

madmike · 03-29-2002, 08:53 AM

Hello everyone! I am new to this forum. For the record I am a Christian and like to debate openly about any of my beliefs.

About the shroud, if we look back to Jewish Law of the time of Jesus' death we sould find that a shround is not common at all. At the time strips of cloth were used to cover the dead not a single shroud. I believe in the King James Version it may also mention strips of cloth. I do not believe the shroud to be real because It is a crutch upon what to lean ones faith upon. What happens if It is revealed a complete fraud? No faith? Then it's not really faith in God now is it?

Baloo · 03-29-2002, 09:56 AM

Quote:

I do not believe the shroud to be real because It is a crutch upon what to lean ones faith upon. What happens if It is revealed a complete fraud? No faith? Then it's not really faith in God now is it?

Welcome to the boards mike! Out of curiosity, do you have the same view of the bible that you do the shroud? Why or why not?

Pomp · 03-29-2002, 11:08 AM

madmike,

Hello everyone! I am new to this forum. For the record I am a Christian and like to debate openly about any of my beliefs.

Welcome aboard!

I do not believe the shroud to be real because It is a crutch upon what to lean ones faith upon. What happens if It is revealed a complete fraud? No faith? Then it's not really faith in God now is it?

Couldn't the same thing be said about any evidence or argument that might be presented for the existence of god? If it is shown to be false, what happens? No faith?

leonarde · 03-29-2002, 03:00 PM

Hello and hail, Madmike!
You post:

Quote:

About the shroud, if we look back to Jewish Law of the time of Jesus' death we sould find that a shround is not common at all. At the time strips of cloth were used to cover the dead not a single shroud. I believe in the King James Version it may also mention strips of cloth. I do not believe the shroud to be real because It is a crutch upon what to lean ones faith upon. What
happens if It is revealed a complete fraud? No faith? Then it's not really faith in God now is it?

So I understand 3 points:
1)Authenticity is undermined by the size of the
Shroud and the fact that it is one rather than
a number of strips.
2)You think it a "crutch".
3)You fear that some future revelation of non-
authenticity will deal a death blow to ALL belief
in God thereby.

On point 1) you are in general agreement with
Spin (and perhaps a few others on the thread).
Most are, surprise!, non-theists.
2)Many of the non-theists on this forum think
religious faith of ANY kind is a crutch.
3)I believe that ship (further undermining revelations) has sailed.

You might take a look at the previous pages (if
you haven't alread).
Cheers!

madmike · 03-29-2002, 06:20 PM

Well, thank you all for your hospitality, maybe your not the Godless hedens I thought you were

Quote:

Couldn't the same thing be said about any evidence or argument that might be presented for the existence of god? If it is shown to be false, what happens? No faith?

Of course! But then again, show me that their is no God......

Quote:

Many of the non-theists on this forum think religious faith of ANY kind is a crutch.

I think that Atheism is a crutch, so were even

. If you can't tell already I am a smart ass!!!!!

Faith isn't a cruch, religion can be, so can alot of things in life. It is a person to person basis, not a generalization.

Vorkosigan · 03-30-2002, 01:16 AM

Will this silly medieval fake ever be laid to rest? Highly unlikely, it appears.

Here's the CSICOP site; it has many links.
<a href="http://www.csicop.org/articles/shroud/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.csicop.org/articles/shroud/index.html</a>

The SkepDic also has a good site on the Shroud.
<a href="http://wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us/~btcarrol/skeptic/shroud.html" target="_blank">http://wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us/~btcarrol/skeptic/shroud.html</a>

leonarde · 03-30-2002, 05:32 PM

I know that I mentioned a number of times the pollen which was found on the Shroud in the 1970s: pollen some types of which are indigeneous
to the Near East only. In addition, in recent years investigators using enhanced photography
have been able to identify outlines of various
plants in the Shroud: plants which are indigeneous
to the Near East only. These efforts have been
confirmed, and in some cases elaborated upon, by Israeli experts in botany. This link gives one
example: Avinoam Danin explains how the place of
origin of the Shroud is illuminated by these findings. The hypothesis is that fresh-picked
and/or bought flowers were entombed with the body
and that the same process which left the image of
the Man of the Shroud is the one which left the
flower/plant impressions. The link:
<a href="http://www.shroud.com/danin.htm" target="_blank">http://www.shroud.com/danin.htm</a>

Cheers!

leonarde · 03-30-2002, 07:01 PM

At the end of page 3 and then on page 4 I brought
up the 3D (body relief) aspects of the Shroud. Here is a link to another paper (complete with illustrations) dealing with that subject:
<a href="http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/aldo1.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/aldo1.pdf</a>
Cheers!

leonarde · 03-31-2002, 06:18 AM

From my next to last post an excerpt in which
Danin talks about the significance of the flower
images/pollen as they relate to the provenance of
the Shroud:

Quote:

I collected samples from Israel of the pollen of all twenty-eight species identified on the shroud so that they could be compared to the grains on Frei's adhesive tapes. In addition, I gathered samples of related species belonging to the same genus or family, to be used in cases of doubt concerning the identification of the plants. I hope that Dr. Uri Baruch, an expert on the pollen of Israel and the surrounding area who has joined our research team, will help us reveal the secrets of the pollen grains on the shroud.

I also checked the distribution pattern in Israel of the plants that had already been identified on the shroud. In my database on local plant distribution (designed by Barak Danin), data is organized in topographical squares of five kilometers to a side. The database includes more than ninety thousand units of information, including the names of the plants and the squares in which they appear. I asked Barak to correlate twenty-six of the species whose imprints were found on the shroud with the plant lists on the various squares superimposed on the country.

At first we analyzed squares of 5 km to a side; later we combined four such squares to form squares of 10 km to a side, and then squares of 20 km to a side. We discovered that there is one square of 10 km to a side that contains 70% of the species we were seeking ?and is located midway between Jerusalem and Jericho. Another check determined that five of the 5-km-sided-squares containing twenty-seven out of the twenty-eight species are in the Jerusalem area: one includes the villages of Aminadav and Mevo Beitar, two include the eastern and western sections of Jerusalem, another includes the village of Kfar Adumim, and the last includes the ruins of Qumran. Other combinations of squares will be examined in the future.

As far as establishing the shroud's provenance, Zygophyllum dumosum is the most significant plant on the list. Max Frei identified pollen grains of this species on the adhesive tapes he examined. The northernmost extent of the distribution of this plant in the world coincides with the line between Jericho and the sea level marker on the road leading from Jerusalem to Jericho. As Zygophyllum dumosum grows only in Israel, Jordan, and Sinai, its appearance helps to definitively limit the shroud's place of origin. The fact that the images of winter leaves appear on the shroud together with the previous year's petioles indicates that the plant was picked in spring. This conclusion is reinforced by the state of growth of the other plants whose images are to be found on the shroud.

leonarde · 03-31-2002, 06:42 AM

This morning (Easter)I received a message from a
friend about a news item about which I was totally
unaware. It has pertinence for our discussion here

Quote:

Shrouded bones could be crucifixion witness

Archeologists believe a 2,000-year-old shrouded body found in a tomb near Jerusalem may have been a witness to Christ's crucifixion.

The bones, and a well-preserved clump of hair, were wrapped in the only shroud from Christ's time to have been found in Israel.

They were discovered by a British archaeologist as he showed students around 1st-century tombs in the Hinnom Valley.

The shroud has been carbon dated to the first 50 years of the 1st century AD. DNA tests on the remains indicate the body was that of a male who died of acute tuberculosis.

News of the discovery, made in 2000, has just only been publicised and will be included in a television documentary on Easter Sunday, says the Daily Telegraph.

Dr Shimon Gibson, who made find, says a shiver ran down his back when he realised what he'd uncovered was a unique find.

He said the tomb had been ransacked by robbers who probably stole valuable artefacts but discarded the shroud and the remains wrapped in it.

Dr Gibson, director of the Jerusalem Archaeological Field Unit, said the tomb was in Akeldama, the "field of blood" referred to in St Matthew's Gospel.

The area is believed to have been bought by Judas with the money he received for betraying Jesus, and was where he later hanged himself. Dr Gibson said the area was now used as a rubbish tip and in "a very poor state".

Dr Gibson added: "Given all the evidence, such as the tomb's prestigious location, the fact that the hair was very clean and the shroud made of wool rather than the cheaper linen normally used, it is probable this man was high born or of a priestly family."

Though I find the idea
that the deceased was a witness to Christ's crucifixion highly speculative (to put it mildly)
the find is of considerable probative value since
it was:
1)from the 1st Century (apparently).
2)was indeed a shroud and not merely a number
of strips.

Those who have followed this thread from the beginning will recall that some here believe that
the S of Turin's one-piece nature alone is indicative of its fraudulence (ie that is not
how corpses were entombed 2000 years ago). I would
like to thank "m" for the above news item which
was from:
<a href="http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_556208.html?menu=news.scienceanddiscovery" target="_blank">http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_556208.html?menu=news.scienceanddiscovery</a>

Cheers! (And Happy Easter)

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: leonarde ]</p>

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03-29-2002, 08:53 AM	#211
madmike Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pensacola Posts: 7	Hello everyone! I am new to this forum. For the record I am a Christian and like to debate openly about any of my beliefs. About the shroud, if we look back to Jewish Law of the time of Jesus' death we sould find that a shround is not common at all. At the time strips of cloth were used to cover the dead not a single shroud. I believe in the King James Version it may also mention strips of cloth. I do not believe the shroud to be real because It is a crutch upon what to lean ones faith upon. What happens if It is revealed a complete fraud? No faith? Then it's not really faith in God now is it?

03-29-2002, 11:08 AM	#213
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	madmike, Hello everyone! I am new to this forum. For the record I am a Christian and like to debate openly about any of my beliefs. Welcome aboard! I do not believe the shroud to be real because It is a crutch upon what to lean ones faith upon. What happens if It is revealed a complete fraud? No faith? Then it's not really faith in God now is it? Couldn't the same thing be said about any evidence or argument that might be presented for the existence of god? If it is shown to be false, what happens? No faith?

03-30-2002, 01:16 AM	#216
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Will this silly medieval fake ever be laid to rest? Highly unlikely, it appears. Here's the CSICOP site; it has many links. <a href="http://www.csicop.org/articles/shroud/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.csicop.org/articles/shroud/index.html</a> The SkepDic also has a good site on the Shroud. <a href="http://wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us/~btcarrol/skeptic/shroud.html" target="_blank">http://wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us/~btcarrol/skeptic/shroud.html</a>

03-30-2002, 05:32 PM	#217
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	I know that I mentioned a number of times the pollen which was found on the Shroud in the 1970s: pollen some types of which are indigeneous to the Near East only. In addition, in recent years investigators using enhanced photography have been able to identify outlines of various plants in the Shroud: plants which are indigeneous to the Near East only. These efforts have been confirmed, and in some cases elaborated upon, by Israeli experts in botany. This link gives one example: Avinoam Danin explains how the place of origin of the Shroud is illuminated by these findings. The hypothesis is that fresh-picked and/or bought flowers were entombed with the body and that the same process which left the image of the Man of the Shroud is the one which left the flower/plant impressions. The link: <a href="http://www.shroud.com/danin.htm" target="_blank">http://www.shroud.com/danin.htm</a> Cheers!

03-30-2002, 07:01 PM	#218
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	At the end of page 3 and then on page 4 I brought up the 3D (body relief) aspects of the Shroud. Here is a link to another paper (complete with illustrations) dealing with that subject: <a href="http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/aldo1.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/aldo1.pdf</a> Cheers!

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