Gurdur

OK, but first with my full apologies to christ-on-a-stick, and maybe LadyShea as well, since this will complicate the discussion, and possibly people like Odemus or luvluv will try using some of my concerns as ammunition, without facing up to my argument.

1. Commercialization of all our most private moments --- there's now a TV car ad which uses an actual birth on film to sell its bloody cars. Barf
   
2. Trivialization of everything down to the most banal sex and sex "techniques".
   There's already too many empty egotists wanking around --- adding the idea very strongly that everything is just sex technique really destroys the need to face up to the fact that real emotional involvement and depth is very necessary
   
3. The illegal porno industry in the USA or Australia or the UK, which targets disturbed teenagers.
   
   One reason why I am very much in favour of fully legalized prostitution and porno industry -- and very stringent controls, with real teeth.
   
4. Much more importantly, the Russian, Albanian and Bosnian porno industries worry me greatly.
   We're talking real snuff, let alone forced child sex acts etc.
   
5. The sexualisation of children ---- children are now routinely sexualised by the ad industry, and a while ago there was even a perfume being made in the USA specifically targeted in ads for 4-year-old boys.
   Barf, and real barf.

OK, I see I've added minor concerns and major concerns --- and they are all slightly off-topic. Sorry

Viti

Thank you Gurdur...I think your concerns are valid and on topic

Now, just so we're all perfectly clear...when I say "Porn" I am talking about "Hey honey, let's stop at this brightly lit, liscensed to be in business by the city, adult store on this main thoroughfare and pick up some naughty movies...that Jenna Jameson is sure hot, but Raquel Darian is great too".

I am NOT talking about "Hey, this guy said if we go to the basement of this warehouse and give the gorilla at the door the password "Sicktwistedfuck" we can find those 'special' videos from overseas"

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by Gurdur
Commercialization of all our most private moments --- there's now a TV car ad which uses an actual birth on film to sell its bloody cars. Barf

I sure haven't seen this. I would find it offensive but I don't think the law should prohibit it--the marketplace will do a perfectly good job of telling them it's no good.

Trivialization of everything down to the most banal sex and sex "techniques".

The details of how to do it shouldn't be any great mystery. Everyone should know how to do it. The important thing is the emotional side of it.

There's already too many empty egotists wanking around --- adding the idea very strongly that everything is just sex technique really destroys the need to face up to the fact that real emotional involvement and depth is very necessary

I don't follow. If all the details are discussed that would include the emotional side of it.

The illegal porno industry in the USA or Australia or the UK, which targets disturbed teenagers.

Given the penalties associated with kiddie porn here I doubt there's much of an industry targeting them. There's plenty of 18 year olds, they don't need younger ones.

Much more importantly, the Russian, Albanian and Bosnian porno industries worry me greatly.
We're talking real snuff, let alone forced child sex acts etc.

Forced sex, yes. I haven't heard any substantiated claims of snuff films, though.
In fact, a year or two ago in a discussion about their existence someone pointed out that you get a huge pile of hits off google. I proceeded to follow a page full of them to see where they led. Most lead to discussions of them. One led to a site with faked images of violence being done to women. One led to a page saying you shouldn't be searching for that. None (of as far down the google list as I went) led to anything that remotely suggested they had the real thing.

The sexualisation of children ---- children are now routinely sexualised by the ad industry, and a while ago there was even a perfume being made in the USA specifically targeted in ads for 4-year-old boys.
Barf, and real barf.

I find this one hard to believe, also. Why would a 4 year old boy be one bit interested in perfume?

Gurdur

Let's keep your Libertarianism out of this.
Personally, I'm all in favour of strong legal control; no-one has ever explained satisfactorily just why the market-place can be trusted.
More than that, it is the government as an expression of the poeple that functions as our policeman, judge, provider and promoter --- these are [b]social and ethical[7b] questions, and the marketplace is not a social ethical place, or a source for ethics, it's only a marketplace.

Sez who ?
Most when they wank on and on about the best technique don't suddenly veer off into the need to approach the other person as a person.
Don't mind me, I've watched 15-year-olds dence barebreasted in cruddy little dives selling themselves as a fuck to the next businessman, as well as them telling me what they did for the films.
I'm talking facts on a worldwide basis, but where I saw that was in a Western country --- I haven't yet started on Bangkok.
I have. Friends in Customs and the police.
I kept the news clipping. It's buried along with all my books following moving house, but I'll dig it out and post it here.
And the ad/perfume was targeted at the parents of 4-year-olds, not the 4-year-olds themselves.

Loren, you should be aware by now I stick to facts, and opinions derived from them ---- possibly you should take that into account.

tronvillain

Gurdur:
*shrugs* I happen to think technique is a very important aspect of sex. From what I hear personally, my fellow men should be paying more attention to it, not less.

Now, I am in favour of the legalization and regulation of prostitution and pornography, but this supposed commercialization of our "private" moments and "trivialization" does not bother me in the slightest.

Gurdur

*shrug*
You're not addressing the point.
It's when an obsession with technique shoulders out any concern at all with the emotional side you get trouble, and many people have huge deficits in the emotional as well as the technique.
It's not an either/or thing; and that's been made clear already.

And as for advertisments, or tastes, obviously we differ.
Got any opinion on the famous Bennetton ad showing a real bloke just died of AIDS in an effort to sell their clothing ?
I could think up a few hypothetical examples as well; where would you set the limits ?

If you simply wish to register a vote against, fine. And ? But do you have an argument against what I'm talking about ?

This is a good moment to segue into a theme that really needs discussion here; and that is, too often discussion on this board devolves into "I'm all right, Jack, stuff you" and "I don't care, as long as it doesn't disturb my lifestyle".
It's a case where atheists suddenly vacate the stage and abdicate social responsibility.
That leaves the stage to the religiously motivated, mostly, or simply makes atheists irrelevant to any discussion of how society should be.
And *shrug*, but I prefer to be socially active and relevant.

Ion

I agree with this:

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by Gurdur
Don't mind me, I've watched 15-year-olds dence barebreasted in cruddy little dives selling themselves as a fuck to the next businessman, as well as them telling me what they did for the films.

You're talking more prostitution than filmmaking. I'll certainly agree there's plenty of teenage prostitution. As with drugs, the lack of a legal age means that minors aren't kept out.

Harumi

Whoa, this thread has already gone way off from where it first began, and as a sheltered teenager, I am completely clueless...well, not that clueless, but this area of pornography and the like is far out of my league.

I also believe in legalizing prostitution. Illegalizing started back in the days when America was getting a bit God-happy, and it doesn't really do anything.

Here in Bloomfield Hills, metro Detroit, we have a little place called 8-mile

In the case of going into the porn industry...sex after marriage, etc, only recently I had felt that waiting would make me happy. Now I've changed my mind.

But I feel that it isn't a dangerous thing, and it wouldn't lead to sudden mass orgies.

Being a rather overemotional person...sometimes not all that bright...I've always favored self-control. I've always admired a man who can control his urges instead of leaping over to the next woman who walks his way.

Gah! This is hard to explain. My point is though, is that teaching your child that sex before marriage isn't a bad thing will not necessarily lead to an unhappy, un-monogamous marriage. I have a boyfriend right now, and I'm still a virgin. Partly this is because he lives several states away, but another is because I feel I'm not ready for it. When I am though, I want to make sure that is a true, and gratifying, memorable experience.

Perhaps I will have sex with many different partners throughout my life, but I won't be doing itwith several. If I go to the next, it will be because I've cut the relationship cleanly and am moving on. This seems fairly healthy to me, and not at all emotionally traumatic, and understanding what you want from a relationship and knowing what you don't want is a very important learning experience.

It would seem that it would be far better to have that then to know one person and never leave him/her. My mother did that. My father abuses her, and she is extremely happy. I doubt that she's ever truly enjoyed a healthy sexual relationship. I doubt that she's ever experienced an orgasm. My mother never learned what she wanted, and when she married, she was too young to understand.

The important thing is to teach your child to be honest with himself/herself in all aspects, and that whatever he/she does will not hurt the other.

That's the key to a healthy marriage, monogamous or no. Not refusing sex before marriage, or participating in a porn industry etc.

I hope I sound coherent, if there's any confusion, I would be happy to clear things up.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by Harumi
Whoa, this thread has already gone way off from where it first began,

Many threads do.

I also believe in legalizing prostitution. Illegalizing started back in the days when America was getting a bit God-happy, and it doesn't really do anything.

You aren't too sheltered, then, you can see the fallacy of the current laws.

But I feel that it isn't a dangerous thing, and it wouldn't lead to sudden mass orgies.

I've never been a sex-only-in-marriage type. Yet an orgy is of no interest to me.

Being a rather overemotional person...sometimes not all that bright...I've always favored self-control. I've always admired a man who can control his urges instead of leaping over to the next woman who walks his way.

Self-control doesn't have to mean denying sex because of the absence of a piece of paper.

Gah! This is hard to explain. My point is though, is that teaching your child that sex before marriage isn't a bad thing will not necessarily lead to an unhappy, un-monogamous marriage.

Agreed. Bed came before marriage--I've never cheated on her (almost 15 years) and I'm sure she has never cheated on me.

It would seem that it would be far better to have that then to know one person and never leave him/her.

I don't see that leaving someone is inherently good. You leave someone who is unsuitable. If the first one is fine, though, no need to find #2.