Ales

Even if it was proved that churches make homosexuals kill themselves it would not be possible to ban them in a due democratic course in a country where the majority espouse them. As far as I understand believers’ mentality they would ignore this since some of them believe that all those who condone homosexual relations would go to hell-these want to punish them by death so that homosexuals’ and their own bliss is guaranteed-other believers believe that only those who have homosexual relations will go to hell-in case they believe suicide is no more sin but a punishment they would welcome the suicide as an atonement for the sinner that can save him from hell, in case they believe suicide is a sin they would have to decide which sin is greater and again there is bifurcation to those that believe preventing someone from sinning is at the same time preventing the believer from hell (or earning a better place in heaven) and those who don’t-most promising are those believers that don’t believe it is possible to sin just by thought but believe that letting someone commit suicide is a sin (either because it offends God or because the suicide suffers) and there certainly are suicides who didn’t "sin" physically...I confused myself : )

It seems that there are cases of bullying with a suicide as a result even if no physical assault is involved and the perpetrators are condemned. There are cases when someone kidnapped a child with the intention to obtain money but not to injure anyone physically, yet the mother committed suicide under the psychic pressure and it seems to me that the judge takes this as an aggravating circumstance.

I think the evil can have more forms than just impinging on one’s safety, legal rights, and economic opportunities. That we aren’t so far able to measure them objectively is another problem. E.g. today only the cleverest condemn pope JPII as a malefactor, I am pretty sure that in the future this condemnation will be as universal as today’s condemnation of cardinal Torquemada.

GeoTheo

Sci girl:
My Scientific belief is that homosexuality is part of a broad range of human sexual behavior. This genetic predeterminism is a new idea. I prefer the Kinsey scale (of which I register 0 BTW, clears thoat, says in masculine voice "how 'bout them yankees?)
But seriously. I think it is a complex issue. I think free will is definately a part as well as imprinting and memory and other factors related to behavior. There are also bisexuals that obviously can choose both.
As far as my religious belief I find it immoral.
Along with over eating, lying, cheating, stealing and all other things that are a (can I say "normal")part of the human condition. They are hard to over come as well. But to be a Christian one has to try and hope for help from the Holy Spirit.
Some Christians are upset at changes they see in the status quo. Changes they see as negative. Is that hard to understand? After all Christianity has been the dominant worldview in the US for many years. Is not the US a good place to live? If Christians have dominated as you imply for so long and have brought about what you percieve as evil by being in power do We deserve no credit for the good as well?
And to answer the topic.
The answer is "Yes" since the definition of bigot seems to be "any person who holds moral beliefs in which I do not share and find disagreeable."
So all you have said is that Christianity holds and promotes views on Homosexuality you don't like.
Hey, That's bound to happen.

GeoTheo

I think people want for homosexuals somthing they can't have. The right for people to like them.
I would even say I do like some as people. I think their sexual behavior is immoral. I have met some that would agree with me and have given it up. Perhaps they struggle. I struggle with swearing.
Some people here really dislike Christians.
They hate it when Christians pray at public ceremonies. They have as much a right to lobby congress as the Christians do.
They have a right to march also. Atheists may frown when they see Christians march. Christians may frown when they see Atheists or gays march.
Life is tough.
Everybody doesn't like everybody. Gays may one day get to marry legally in all states. Nobody has any obligation before the law to help them or to like them. It's a free country.

Autonemesis

But opposition to theism is not intrinsically bigotry and prejudice. Atheists have long opposed ignorance, superstition, and opression. Opposition to superstition is not prejudice and bigotry.

I don't support any form of bigotry or prejudice directed at theists. But atheists do have every right to state their opposition to superstition and opressive behavior.

scigirl

I would agree with you there.

And this is why I am so saddened at this whole issue. You view an act of love between two consenting adults as a sin, I view it as a beauty.

At this point, I am finding it difficult to decide what side you are arguing. Are you saying that the majority of Christian churches do not promote intolerance of the gay lifestyle, or that they do, but that is their right?

You can't have it both ways - either the Christian churches have not played a role in the current state of homosexual freedoms (they have no right to marry, etc etc) and the current attitudes (i.e. "I don't care if people are gay, I just don't have to see it") or you are saying that, yes indeed Christian churches have played a role in setting up the current state of homosexual freedoms and attitudes which of course they SHOULD be doing? I'm confused - which one is your belief?
I understand - sure. But allowing gays to marry is somehow going to "ruin" good ole old fashioned american values? People said the same thing about outlawing slavery, or giving women the right to vote.

You think homosexuality is a sin, I think that discriminating against homosexuals because of the manner in which they choose to have sex is a sin. I don't think we will ever agree.

However, while I would never consider passing a law making it illegal to "save it til marriage," you would (please correct me if I"m wrong) pass or promote a law which would make it illegal for gay people to marry. Do you see the difference between our actions? And if this was brought to a vote, than you either are for or against it in this case. Would you vote for allowing gays the right to marry? Would you vote against it? OR. . . would you abstain?
Once again you completely change the subject. I am not giving Christians that much credit or power, and if you actually knew me, you would not accuse me of doing so (just ask other infidels - I"m constantly harping on people who blame religion for everything, and I was actually in favor of allowing liberal christians like seebs. . .or even you--if you really did "convert" to evolution--to help moderate at E/C). So. . . next point please,
What do you mean by "promte views?" Pass legislation?

GeoTheo, please read that list that Bree provided again. These views are oppressing and hurting humans, and they need to be changed (or kept out of the secular government, unless the christians can make a secular case for outlawing gay marriage, etc - which I notice you have yet to do)

Please please please - when you go home to your wife tonight - look at her, and imagine what it would be like to live in a world that truly believed that your relationship with her was immoral! Imagine not being able to wear your wedding band for fear of ridicule, imagine having to fight tooth and nail to be able to make medical decisions for her if she ever got hurt in a car wreck. Imagine having to hide your relationship from your parents, from your co-workers, from your friends. Do you even have a clue what it's like? I do not, because I am a heterosexual. But I can imagine that it sucks big time. Bigotry against gays is not new - you are right. And bigotry against gays is not due to all christians, or even just because of religion. Once again you are right. But you said it yourself:
And this worldview has either been destructive, or ambivalent to, the homosexual lifestyle for many years. Go ahead and wash your hands of the problem, but it will not go away. While most Christian churches continue to either ignore, or actively condemn, homosexuals, the "rest of us" are going to have to fight just as hard so that gays can enjoy the same freedoms that many of us have taken for granted your whole life.

scigirl

Autonemesis

Don't you find it ironic then that with a so-called conservative administration in power, things seem to be changing faster than anyone can control? Think about that before you use the term "conservative" again, would you?

GeoTheo

Oh, I get it. I'm a Christian. So that means I am a big Bush fan. I'm actually not even a republican. I used to be though.

scigirl

I suppose you are right. People that choose to like, or dislike someone, based upon what orifice that person chooses to use in bed are not exactly worthy of friendship anyway.

Theo - do you want people to define you as a person based solely on the fact that your penis penetrates a vagina from time to time? Do you?

Well than quit doing it to other people. Bree is a valuble member of this society - she is a dancer, she is a student of art, she is a moderator, she is a female, she is a wisconsinite, she is many many many things. But apparently some people will see her as a female who has sex with other females, and that's all. How sad.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />
<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />
Once again, you said you are married, but have you really been in love? You equate a loving relationship between two consenting adults with swearing?

Well if they are violating the first amendment, than shame on the christians. That is a separate issue.

So two wrongs make a right? Your logic really gets my head spinning sometimes.

I bet the black people in america today are happy that some people did think they had an obligation. I'm not asking you to like people like bree - just don't impede her freedom to express her love to jeckyll (spelling??) using our secular government to do it, and furthermore don't stand in our way when we fight for her rights. Thank you.

scigirl

GeoTheo

Sci girl basically all you say comes down to:
"I have a romantic notion of Gay sex.
These mean Christians think its gross.
They are bigots.
They should think gay sex is beautiful.
They should smile upon gay sex and think of it as being just as noble as marriage between a man and a woman.
They should take their children to gay pride parades and whatch people dressed in leather wave around huge dildoes.
It makes me cry."
Not everyone thinks like you. I think you are intolerant. No one has a right to be thought of by others as being right. I don't have a right to make you think like me. That is not bigotry.

scigirl

Excuse me? Once again you attack a straw man. You lump all gay rights in with the obnoxious gays who want to wave dildos around, and you call me intolerant?

No comments on my pleas to you to examine your own relationship with your wife and even try to see where they are coming from?

scigirl