Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 06-26-2003, 05:15 PM

This is a complete guess, but I'd say they're just watching the fish at the front and mimicking it.

Perhaps, but that was implied in my explanation of "a case of extraordinary coordination and fast, instinctual reaction time". The reaction would be to the actions of the fish in front (or perhaps to the sides; see below) of the fish.

However, many fish and birds (particularly prey species) have the eyes situated at the sides of the head to give a wide field of vision, with some overlap for frontal/binocular vision. So it may be as much watching the fish on either side, and perhaps even above and below, as the one in front.

In any case, it's an amazing site.

And personally, I think it's more instinctual than learned (at least for fish; there might be some learning involved for birds). Schools of hatchling fish exhibit this behaviour, IIRC. Little fish don't tend to hang around with the big fish to learn the ropes; they'd likely be lunch.

echidna · 06-26-2003, 05:39 PM

A bit of a pop-sci answer but anyway �

http://www.aquariums.state.nc.us/ata/swim.htm

Quote:

How do fish achieve harmony of movement in a school? Vision is the primary sense used to hold their place in a school. Visual markers play a big role -- each member of a school follows some key feature of the fish around it, usually a stripe or spot on their bodies, fins, or tails. Because of this dependence on vision, schools break up or at least lose their internal structure at night. The vibration-detecting lateral line, a row of sensory cells that runs along the sides of the body, also provides information about neighbors' movements.

echidna · 06-26-2003, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by trekbette
We only use a small percentage of our total brain power.

BTW, to elaborate on Elvithriel's answer, http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm

Arken · 06-26-2003, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
[stuff about fish schools and bird flocks I decided not to paste here for space reasons]

I completely forgot about this when I gave my answer earlier. We actually are able to effectively reproduce flocks/schools with a simple AI program developed quite a few years ago now known as Boids. You can see a version of it for yourself here: http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/index.html

It essentially entails following a few simple rules and does have to do with the creature you are next to.

BioBeing · 06-26-2003, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elvithriel
Not that silly myth again...

Is it really a myth??? I think so, but in the thread I started recently no hard data has been presented to either support or refute it...

trekbette · 06-26-2003, 09:34 PM

Thanks for elaborating on my idea. It was one of those three in the morning "hey, I wonder..." thoughts.

-Trekbette

Lobstrosity · 06-26-2003, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesse
I agree, though, that the split brain issue is potentially troubling to believers in a soul, and would be even more troubling if all connections between the two halves were split--I don't think there'd ever be a medical justification for a complete split, but I wonder if this has ever been done with animals in experiments.

In my mind, split-brain studies deal a critical blow to the notion of mind-brain duality. If you believe that some intangible soul is truly behind the decisions you make than such a soul would itself act as a bridge between the hemispheres. For example, here's one typical experiment conducted on split-brain patients:

http://www.macalester.edu/~psych/wha...xperiment.html

Here the person reads a word and is conscious of what he reads (as is evinced by the fact that he can correctly select the object using the sense of touch) but is incapable of naming that object. Why is the soul incapable of commanding the language center of the brain to speak the name of the object? Oh wait, I know...we each have TWO souls...a right soul and a left soul. These souls just happen to talk to each other using the corpus callosum. Dualism is saved!

markfiend · 07-01-2003, 01:14 AM

Hello, I'm new on the forum.

Anyway. I saw something a while ago that gave me pause for thought -- an experiment that seems to provide evidence of telepathy between identical twins. I'm sure many people are aware of anecdotal claims for this kind of telepathy, but I saw an experiment on UK television which I am at a loss to account for except by telepathy (or cheating, but I couldn't see how it could be done).

The experiment went like this: a pair of identical twins (boys aged about 8 or 9) were the subjects. One of the boys, let's call him twin A, was taken into a soundproof room and hooked up to a polygraph. The other, twin B, was taken to another part of the building for the experiment. At a pre-arranged time, video cameras on both twins were started up, and the experiment began.

Twin B was subjected to the kind of emotional stress which would usually register on a polygraph; loud noises, people jumping out at him, etc.

The point being, that twin A's polygraph showed significant correlation with the patterns and times of the stuff inflicted on his brother.

Corey Hammer · 07-01-2003, 05:37 AM

Because of the way the brain develops true telepathy would be nearly impossible. You would need to be able to determine what patterns of activation mean what in the brain of your target. Then you'd also have to pick out which ones are currently in working memory.

I think it would be like trying to remember a dream. The other person's brain would act like a completely different (and possibly too alien) state of consciousness. At best, you might be able to get some basic empathic readings (e.g., the six basic emotions: happiness, anger, disgust, surprise, sadness, fear).

Arken · 07-01-2003, 05:51 AM

Hi, markfiend.

Polygraph tests are notoriously unreliable for any type of scientific research and much of it depends on the biased interpretation of the reader of the test.

For more information (admittedly mostly just about the lie detection claims of polygraph enthusiasts), check out http://www.skepdic.com/polygrap.html

07-01-2003, 01:14 AM	#28
markfiend Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The People's Republic of West Yorkshire Posts: 498	twin telepathy? Hello, I'm new on the forum. Anyway. I saw something a while ago that gave me pause for thought -- an experiment that seems to provide evidence of telepathy between identical twins. I'm sure many people are aware of anecdotal claims for this kind of telepathy, but I saw an experiment on UK television which I am at a loss to account for except by telepathy (or cheating, but I couldn't see how it could be done). The experiment went like this: a pair of identical twins (boys aged about 8 or 9) were the subjects. One of the boys, let's call him twin A, was taken into a soundproof room and hooked up to a polygraph. The other, twin B, was taken to another part of the building for the experiment. At a pre-arranged time, video cameras on both twins were started up, and the experiment began. Twin B was subjected to the kind of emotional stress which would usually register on a polygraph; loud noises, people jumping out at him, etc. The point being, that twin A's polygraph showed significant correlation with the patterns and times of the stuff inflicted on his brother.

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06-26-2003, 05:15 PM	#21
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	This is a complete guess, but I'd say they're just watching the fish at the front and mimicking it. Perhaps, but that was implied in my explanation of "a case of extraordinary coordination and fast, instinctual reaction time". The reaction would be to the actions of the fish in front (or perhaps to the sides; see below) of the fish. However, many fish and birds (particularly prey species) have the eyes situated at the sides of the head to give a wide field of vision, with some overlap for frontal/binocular vision. So it may be as much watching the fish on either side, and perhaps even above and below, as the one in front. In any case, it's an amazing site. And personally, I think it's more instinctual than learned (at least for fish; there might be some learning involved for birds). Schools of hatchling fish exhibit this behaviour, IIRC. Little fish don't tend to hang around with the big fish to learn the ropes; they'd likely be lunch.

06-26-2003, 09:34 PM	#26
trekbette Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Torrance, CA Posts: 533	Thanks for elaborating on my idea. It was one of those three in the morning "hey, I wonder..." thoughts. -Trekbette

07-01-2003, 05:37 AM	#29
Corey Hammer Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 368	Because of the way the brain develops true telepathy would be nearly impossible. You would need to be able to determine what patterns of activation mean what in the brain of your target. Then you'd also have to pick out which ones are currently in working memory. I think it would be like trying to remember a dream. The other person's brain would act like a completely different (and possibly too alien) state of consciousness. At best, you might be able to get some basic empathic readings (e.g., the six basic emotions: happiness, anger, disgust, surprise, sadness, fear).

07-01-2003, 05:51 AM	#30
Arken Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 6,303	Hi, markfiend. Polygraph tests are notoriously unreliable for any type of scientific research and much of it depends on the biased interpretation of the reader of the test. For more information (admittedly mostly just about the lie detection claims of polygraph enthusiasts), check out http://www.skepdic.com/polygrap.html

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