Shake

Well then, why the hell did he equip me with the ability to reason and conclude that he doesn't exist? It's only blasphemy to you and other theists. Don't you see that? We don't believe in your blasphemy, sin, your god, the devil, heaven, hell, Jesus (as the son of god), the HS, etc. These are your terms. They hold no meaning for us, other than "terms for things that Xians believe in." Also Magus, I wonder how you know that your god doesn't believe in me. And if he doesn't then what does he care what I think or say anyways?

Other theists on these boards have argued that we do not, and indeed can not know the true nature of god or why he does what he does. So, again, how do you know he wouldn't forgive me anyway? What if he says, "Shake, you know now that you were wrong, but it took strength, courage and integrity to come to and then stand by your decision not to believe in me. Being a loving deity, I forgive you your sins, which since you didn't believe in the concept of sin, you didn't know you were committing. Welcome."

Flip-flopping now to speculate about god's nature: you theists will tell me he's all-powerful, yes? He can do anything, right? Well, from the link that Magus55 posted, I found this:Hmmm... interesting!

Also, if he were all-caring, etc., why would I have been given the ability to commit a sin that he can't (there's that word again!) forgive?

JtB, nice reference to the album by The Police! Ghost in the Machine now takes on new meaning for me!

Alludium Fozdex

I'll wizz on his Divine Foot. What have I got to lose?

Rhea

Now tell me, who would be so MONUMENTALLY STUPID as to know the god of the bible exists, know all of his powers and then turn his back.

I tell you Christians, have you ever EVER met anyone who actually believes in God and simultaneously rejects him?

Oh, wait. Yeah. Cardinal Law. Oops, Mother Theresa. That pope who kidnapped the 6 yo boy. Whoops, there goes Jerry Falwell. Shazaam - I see George W. Bush!

All those believers hurting their fellow man.

But, oddly, Christians, every one.

So I guess it's not Atheists who have to worry about hell. Wonder if Mother T knew that when she took money from a thief she'd be damning her everlasting soul?

I've still got a chance. Bush, OTOH, is hosed.

the_cave

But it seems to be this is exactly what I'm saying--believing that the holy spirit (which the church also identifies with love) is actually an unclean spirit--and hence rejecting it. Now, the church also believes that the holy spirit visits us in different ways--as love, it visits all of us. Surely someone who rejected love would spend a life living in their own hell, god entirely aside.

If someone is sick, rejecting a doctor may result in death. If you believe in spiritual sickness (as the audience in Mark 3:30 did), for example spiritual "posession", rejecting the remedy (god's healing grace) will surely result in spiritual death. If you don't believe in spiritual sickness, fine--but I suspect you do believe in emotional sickness, and also search for a cure. If you found it and rejected it, the consequences would surely be bad. That's the lesson of Mark 3:30, it seems to me.

Radorth

Well Cave, you can read it that way, but I think even you (normally rational) are injecting your own biases here. The whole story here is about Jesus being accused of getting his power from the devil, and just to make sure we get it, Mark specifically tells us what this blasphemy is so people don't go off making wild guesses about the one major UNFORGIVABLE sin, yet WE STILL DON'T GET IT.

Of course religious people and the Bible have never been very compatible IMO.

I'm sorry but even the skeptics aren't being particularly rational here.

Personally I don't think an ignorant, irreligious person could ever commit it. I also think the Pharisees were knowingly lying because the whole world had gone after Jesus. As Nicodemus said "We know no man could do such things unless he came from God." (Quoting from memory) The only people I know who have come close to it were actually Christians calling miracles diablical in origin. However if they said so in good faith, they would not be guilty of it.

Rad

CALDONIA

A coworker of mine (Pentacostalist pastor in his spare time) wore a T-shirt that stated, "Heaven or Hell, it's your decision." Fodder for laughter, actually. Typical American devotion to dicotomy, always TWO sides to every story.

If one is a non-believer in everything, how many Hells must we endure? There is the Christian Hell, but also the Hell given us via Allah, and who the "hell" knows how many other underworlds we will be sent to accept as eternal residence.

You stupid Christians, go to Heaven or go to Hell, the rest of us just wish to be left alone.