Mad Kally

So you are possessed but have no recollection of what happened?

Wow, and to think all I did was ask too many questions and get told to "SHUT UP!"

whys one

You really should read it.

echidna

Seraphim, I believe this article goes a long way to explaining your personal experiences at age 8.

<a href="http://www.enformy.com/!demons.html" target="_blank">http://www.enformy.com/!demons.html</a>

Interestingly it also deals with the issues which we discussed earlier regarding the marginalisation of people with perceived mental illness.

Corgan Sow

Wow, and to think all I did was ask too many questions and get told to "SHUT UP!"

I have a request.

Post a link for our friend here about fallacies such as "ad hoc" and "ad hominem". I'm sure he'll be enlightened...

echidna

Here’s another good article discussing the neurology & psychology of “possession”.

<a href="http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/spiritpos.html" target="_blank">http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/spiritpos.html</a>

Seraphim, amnesic and dissociative psychoses are not uncommon. In fact I had to deal with an unpleasant episode 3 weeks ago myself last month during my volunteer work with the intellectually disabled. No demon possession at all, the psychological triggers were entirely clear as was her violent behaviour. Sometimes they pass, sometimes they are chronic.

Now if I weren’t aware of the psychology behind dissociative psychoses, I would have been quite frightened & obviously concluded she was demon possessed. But would such a false interpretation have helped in how to deal with such a behavioural incident ? Of course not. Reaching for crucifixes & holy water is pointless however understanding it as a neurological disorder allows one to treat it impartially, objectively and effectively.

Philosoft

I'm not overly concerned with what you have seen. I don't doubt you have seen some outrageous behavior. I'm asking how you know there are non-physical malevolent beings controlling these people's behavior. Have you seen them enter or leave a body?

[snip possession speculation]

Dare I ask how you diagnose possessed behavior like this? Is there a manual or a textbook?

<strong> Ah, so you are claiming to have been possessed? I suspected as much.

Seraphim

This post gave me the BIGGEST headache in a long time ... you just couldn't post smaller portions, could you?

"Point One:

One of the most basic and important principles of logic is known as “Ockham’s Razor.” It comes from William of Ockham who, in the fourteenth century, wrote that “entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily.”

My reply : How is this "Ockham's Razor" supposed to be practical? It defises even the need for Science?
If someone said scientists don't need to look for the origin of Mankind because of this, then Darwin could have listened and sat at home instead sun-dried himself on Beagle for 3 years.
Hell ... if everyone listened to this guy (William), even Atheist couldn't have possibily existed because it is simpler to think God existed and everything that said in Holy Books is correct and uncorrupted.

So, how exactly does this serves as a Point?

"Point Two:

When the nature of a phenomenon is not understood, it is not logical to assume that it is unexplainable. It may simply be that we don’t yet have enough data to explain the phenomenon."

My reply : Yes, acceptable. Is it OK to say that we don't know whether such things like Ghost existed or not till further data comes in?

"Point Three:

The burden of proof is always upon the claimant. If someone insists that a thing exists, it is not up to others to prove that it doesn’t; it is up to the claimant to prove that it does. It is not logical to believe in the existence of things for which no solid proof has been provided."

My reply : No matter what the proof is given, the final task whether such thing is logical or not falls onto the person who is listening to it, not those who claimed it. In that context, no matter what I say, the final verdict is in your hands, not mine.

"You are multiplying entities unnecessarily. “Ghosts” can be readily explained without invoking the unproved hypothesis that “souls” exist. The simpler explanation is more likely to be correct."

My reply : Thank you, you made my life easier.

"My question is simple: Can you provide evidence that ghosts actually exist, and that they cannot be explained by conventional means?"

My reply : That is because our approach toward it could be a mistaken. Lack of proper means to measure something doesn't mean that what we attended to measure doesn't exist, it simply means that the tool which we are trying to use maybe inadequate.

"If I find that my consciousness persists after my death, I can assure you that this will effect a radical reassessment of my outlook on such matters. Why should my ghost will be unable to explore the new freedoms that have opened up?"

My question : If you found out your consciousness persisted your death, WOULD anyone cares? (No, that is not a question to upset you). Simply is this, your conscious could exist solely because you existed, not because others made you exist.

Depends on whatelse attached to this new "freedom" which opened to you. If you found yourself being consist of energy which is bound in prison of other energy (such as a wall with higher dense molecular structure than you), moving around to a lengthy distant could prove indeed troublesome.

"You’re not seriously suggesting that the reason I can’t flap my arms and fly to the moon is because I don’t believe I can, are you?"

My reply : Your body couldn't fly because of physical limitation, that doesn't mean your mind is limited to such limitations as well.

Why do we dream? Some say because of stress and all and dream is subconscious way where the mind release itself in dream state out of this limitation.
In that context, you cannot flap your arms and fly because your mind thinks so.
Why it think such? Because it is attached to the body that shows such limitation.

"Forgive me for asking, but what part of “no one assumes that we have a complete understanding of the universe around us” was unclear?"

My reply : The part of you returning momentarily later to state that what we know is enough. Do you actually believe what you say yourself? That what you know is incomplete?

If you do, then you could also consider that what I say also COULD (A very big IF) present another point of view from same concept but different perspective.

"While we’re on the subject, though, how is it arrogant to suggest that we should stick to prosaic explanations before invoking unknown entities for which no one has provided convincing evidence?"

My reply : Why not? You came out with that "Ockhlam's Razor" didn't you? Stating that the best solution is always the easiest.

"There are lots of perfectly natural phenomena which can cause people to experience extremely realistic and convincing hallucinations, even when wide awake.

As mentioned earlier, hypnopompic and hypnagogic experiences can and do cause people to see ghostly images. True, these experiences typically occur when the person is just falling asleep or just waking up, but isn’t it an amazing coincidence that most reports of ghostly visitations seem to occur when the witness is just falling asleep or just waking up?"

My reply : Well, coincidence maybe not. The brain activities could reduce to a level that a low emiting energy signature could be detected somehow by the brain.

I heard of such thing as Alpha waves and etc produced by brains during awake and sleep stages. Maybe those who could see ghost are simply people who have higher state of acceptance in which they could detect energy signature. Like radio detecting radio waves when it tuned to the proper frequency and not before.

"Mild forms of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy are actually quite common. People experiencing a TLE seizure may be completely unaware of it, and it can happen when the person is wide awake and fully alert. People experiencing a TLE seizure often report the experience as “deeply spiritual” (epilepsy was once called “divine madness” for a reason), and often see and hear things that aren’t actually there. Interestingly, the temporal lobes of the brain appear to be where a person’s sense of “self” is generated. Unusual activity in the temporal lobe often corresponds with the person reporting the presence of another being.

Persons suffering a TLE seizure very often insist that they can sense the presence of some other being in the vicinity. Frequently, this “sensed presence” is assumed to be a ghost or an alien.

The neuroscientist Michael Persinger has been able to induce this experience in patients by stimulation of the temporal lobe with magnetic signals. These patients report seeing or otherwise sensing dead relatives or other beings -- beings which promptly vanish when the magnetic induction is turned off."

My reply : What's wrong with that? IF Ghost are indeed consist of electromagnetic energy (or some other form of energy), tuning into it (by magnetic signals) could be the way one sees ghost.

As for TLE seizures, I will see properly later to see if characteristics pictured there fits myself and if it does, then it is safe to say that my brain somehow reached a stage where TLE occurs in a controlled manner to enable me to detect energy signature.

"Interestingly, it has been suggested that improperly shielded electrical lines can produce an oscillating magnetic field which my induce exactly such hallucinations in susceptible people. "

My reply : Wanna me to laugh? I have various sightings on woods and fields, areas that is free from cables and electrical appliances.

"The point is that very realistic and convincing hallucinations can be and are induced in the brains of perfectly normal people by perfectly explainable means. No invocation of souls or other unknown entities is necessary."

My reply : I'm unconvince since what I see is decriptions of tools which we could use, not that what we descript itself it false. However, I guess for someone who find this is as acceptable reason, I guess I could accept it as well.

'As best we can tell, the universe contains two things: energy and matter. Each has distinct properties.

Energy exists in two forms: potential energy and kinetic energy. Potential energy is stored energy. It is stored in chemical bonds, for instance. In any event, potential energy, by definition, isn’t doing anything. So, I think we can rule out ghosts as being made up of potential energy.

The problem with something being “made of energy” is that energy, by its nature, disperses. What forms of energy are available to make up our supposed energy beings? Radiant energy consists of photons moving at the speed of light. It’s difficult to see how an entity could be composed of energy that is always moving at some 300,000 kilometers per second. The “ghost” in question would disperse essentially instantaneously. Hauntings would be very short-lived phenomena indeed. Is the ghost actually just a hologram then? If so, it must have a power source.

Just so we’re clear: the problem with saying that ghosts are made of energy is that their alleged properties are in contradiction to the way that energy is observed to behave in the real world. Energy disperses; that’s what it does. If ghosts exist, and they’re made of energy, it’s an unusual sort of energy that doesn’t behave like energy as physicists understand it."

My reply : Well, main problem here is that energy disperse. Can't think much about it, unless to say ghost could be made of unknown energy which I don't want to say since such thing is a bit out of my hands.

"There are four known fundamental forces which govern how matter and energy interact. (There’s some evidence for a fifth force, but if it exists, it has observable effects only at such truly enormous distances -- we’re talking intergalactic distances here -- that it can be safely ignored.)"

My reply : OK.

"Two of the forces, the Weak and Strong forces, work only at the scale of the atomic nucleus. Since these forces literally don’t exist outside the atomic nucleus, they can be safely ignored. Gravitation is the third force. Gravitation does not seem to be a reasonable candidate for explaining the properties of ghosts. That leaves the Electromagnetic force.

Electromagnetism does some pretty-neat things, like holding molecules together, and it propogates through space, carried by photons. But then, that’s the problem, photons move at the speed of light, so they don’t exactly seem like viable candidates for making ghosts."

My reply : Unless of course that the ghost in an electromagnetic form hold itself in ground state, just enough to be in physical plain among other objects of similar energy level.

"Well, maybe there are other forms of energy, carried by forces other than the ones we’re familiar with. Maybe ghosts are made of some unfamiliar form of energy that doesn’t behave like other forms of energy."

My reply : Let not go into that till we exhausted all possible explainations. I keep holding onto electromagnetic as source. The other form of energy is possible (just like nuclear was not know till some 1850s).

"One of the most thoroughly-tested and universally-accepted scientific principles is that of the Conservation of Energy. The Gravitational Force is millions of times weaker than is the Electromagnetic force. To illustrate, consider this: if you toss a bowling ball off a tall building, it takes the entire gravitational field of the Earth to accelerate it downward. Yet the electromagnetic force between the atoms that make up the sidewalk will stop it almost instantly. Gravity is weak."

My reply : OK.

"With modern instruments, it is possible to measure the energy flow through a system with incredible accuracy. Experiments conducted in 1964 by Robert Dicke (and since replicated) have shown that if -- if -- a fifth force exists, it can be no more than one-trillionth as powerful as gravity. "

My reply : Small doesn;t mean it doesn't exist. I will hold on to it till future scientific data comes along ... just in case.

"Um, no. Energy doesn’t draw energy unto itself. Quite the opposite, actually -- energy dissipates. If you want to gather and store energy, you need to store it in matter."

My reply : Doesn't two forces of opposite charge attract each other? Like magnetic feild of positive charged attract that of a negative charged particle?

"It’s difficult to say whether your explanation is correct, because it doesn’t seem to make much sense.

Water is a liquid. It is a liquid because the thermal energy of the water molecules is not sufficient to overcome the electromagnetic forces which cause the molecules to stick together. Add enough thermal energy to the water, and the electromagnetic forces can no longer hold the molecules together -- the molecules will then begin to move independently because of their high thermal energy. At this point, you have a gas, steam. If you then remove thermal energy from the water molecules, you’ll eventually reach a point where the thermal energy that would keep them apart can no longer overcome the electromagnetic attraction that would bring them together. At this point, the steam condenses back into water.

It’s important to keep in mind that there’s no such thing as cold. Cold is simply the relative lack of thermal energy."

My reply : So the whole process is determined by how much energy been received and end with matter dissipating such energy to return to the ground state. Is this acceptable?

So it is any difference between what I pictures of a ghost (being electromagnetic energy) being in ground state and increase and decrease in will (or by its own uncontrollable mechanism of some kind)?

"How does a thing which has no mass appear solid?

Water has mass, and behaves as if it does."

My reply : And what is a Mass? Collection of energy that gathered together to form mass, true?
In that context, a ghost could simply be an unexcited, ground state form which could either increase in energy level only to dissipate later (which follows the Physical Laws).

Question of why could be because they want to cling themselves to the living rather than face death.

"All atoms are uncharged (electrically neutral). Charged atoms are called “ions.” This is not the same thing as an excited atom.

Electrons “orbit” the nucleus of an atom in “shells.” If all the electrons are in their lowest shells, the atom is in its ground state. If an atom absorbs radiant energy, that energy may kick one or more electrons into a higher shell. Such an atom is said to be excited. An “excited” atom has precisely the same physical and chemical properties as a ground-state atom, except that it will eventually release the energy it has stored when the electron(s) fall back into lower shell(s). "

My reply : Two questions :

1. Does an unexcited atom gather energy to become ions?

2. Does this ions gather together to form a mass?

"Well, since I’ve taken pains to point out that we don’t have a complete understanding of the world around us, I don’t see where you get that idea.

As has been repeatedly said, however, if you wish to propose the existence of entities which display characteristics contrary to our understanding of the way that things work, you must provide some evidence that they exist, and that our understandings are incorrect.

A good place to start would be to demonstrate that the principle of the conservation of energy is incorrect. Another good place to start would be to demonstrate the existence of some form of heretofore unknown energy that doesn’t behave like “normal” energy does."

My reply : OK, acceptable statements. It is what I know VS what I yet to know. In any perspective, I'm in losing side due to lack of proper data.

"Well, long before they were proved to exist, it was shown mathematically that black holes almost certainly had to exist. Therefore, it wasn’t a big surprise to discover the existence of black holes. Quite the contrary, actually; it would have been a big surprise to discover that they don’t exist.

Ghosts, on the other hand, are not predicted by mathematics, nor by our understanding of the properties of energy and matter. Quite the opposite, actually.

They laughed at Wilbur and Orville Wright; they laughed at Charles Darwin. They also laughed at Bozo the Clown.

Someone who insisted that black holes don’t exist would be laughed at because there’s convincing evidence that they do exist. No convincing evidence has been produced that ghosts exist, however, so there’s as yet no reason to take the claim seriously."

My reply : OK, acceptable also.

"It is the business of science to explore the unknown. People have spent time exploring the possibility that ghosts exist. So far, all attempts to demonstrate the existence of ghosts have failed.

If you look for something and fail to find it where it should be, it is not unreasonable to conclude that it probably doesn’t exist."

My reply : Two possibilities - Either they do not exist OR we are not approaching the proper way due to lack of data. Remember, it took nearly 100 years to prove to everyone that earth was indeed round and the most solid proof came by pictures from space.

"Is this really so difficult? We don’t know everything, but there are some things about which we can draw extremely firm conclusions. Until some evidence is produced to demonstrate that these conclusions are wrong, it is not unreasonable to accept them as provisionally true.

By all the evidence, the Earth really is round. By all the evidence, it is impossible to accelerate matter to the speed of light. By all the evidence, if I drop an unsupported object in a vacuum, it will accelerate toward the Earth’s center at 9.8 meters/second/second. By all the evidence, ripping a person’s heart out of his chest will kill him within a few minutes’ time.

Some things we can be quite certain of."

My reply : Till new data arrives then.

"Unionized gas is called “gas.” It is quite detectable, and it behaves just like matter. Plasma is ionized gas, and it, too, behaves just like matter. Ground-state atoms are atoms whose electrons are all occupying the lowest shells. They behave just like other atoms -- indeed, if I’m not mistaken, the overwhelming majority of the atoms that currently make up your body are in the ground state. Unless you happen to be standing inside a rather large microwave oven, perhaps."

My reply : OK. And my money still on ground state gas or Plasma.

"So ghosts are made of matter after all, then? Is a ghost what you get if you boil a person?"

My reply : A ghost is what you get when someone dies and do not accept his death. In another word, his consciousness do not allow itself to dissipate.

"A solid object, such as a wall, is made up of tightly-bound atoms/molecules. Energy can move through it (though not without restrictions), but matter typically does not. To move matter through a wall, you must break the bonds that hold together the molecules of the wall. This tends to have unfortunate consequences for the wall.

There is a way to get around this, and that is to remove virtually all of the thermal energy from the substance in question. If the atoms that make up the substance are small enough, they may be able to pass through the wall by slipping between the molecular lattice. This works best for substances like pure hydrogen or pure helium, which are made up of very small atoms. Even then you must remove virtually all thermal energy from the atoms to get this trick to work.

Of course, thermal energy dissipates. So, for our hypothetical ghost to do this, it must somehow cool itself to a degree or two above Absolute Zero. Then it might be capable of passing through a wall. But anything even remotely close to that cold immediately absorbs thermal energy from its environment, and warms up. So, our hypothetical ghost would have to be kept inside of an extremely efficient cooling apparatus if it wants to be able to pass through walls. Of course, the presence of said cooling apparatus might prove to be a slight inconvenience.

Of course, matter and energy are really the same thing, as Einstein showed (E=mc^2). So, maybe the ghost converts itself into energy in order to pass through walls. High-energy gamma rays could pass through the typical wall quite easily. Of course, the ghost then has the slight problem of how to reconstitute itself.

But wait, there’s another problem. A little bit of matter produces a lot of energy. Let’s suppose that our ghost has a mass of one gram. Of course, such an insubstantial being would have trouble doing much of anything, but I digress.

Now then, this ghost wants to pass through a wall, and it just happens to have the magical ability to convert itself into energy in order to do so. Here’s the problem: the energy released when a one-gram ghost did this trick would be the equivalent of a good-sized thermonuclear explosion. In attempting the “pass through a wall trick” the ghost would flatten every structure within a mile’s radius. "

My reply : OK, unless that ghost consist solely in form of energy which could match itself with surrounding matter.

"Hydrogen and helium ultimately escape from the earth’s atmosphere. The vanishingly small amount of hydrogen in the earth’s atmosphere is mostly due to decomposition of water (H2O) molecules, and the tiny amounts of helium in the atmosphere are constantly being replenished by helium released during the radioactive decay of elements in the earth’s crust."

My reply : OK ... so the Earth is consisting replenshing the atmosphere with hydrogen and helium so it could have water.

"Molecular excitation is not the same as heat. If ghosts exist and can propel themselves, they will emit waste heat. Maybe not a lot, since they seem to have very little mass, but the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics insists that they’ll generate some. "

My reply : You said that in order for a mass to move, it must leave energy resdue. Excited air molecular could be this resdue you are looking for.
Heat is not necessarily be the resdue since the amount of energy a ghost could use could be very little. Smaller in size of mass, smaller the amount of energy been released.

"Unless there is an outside source of energy constantly pumping new energy into this system, what you’re talking about is a clear violation of the first and second laws of thermodynamics. "

My reply : particles (such as photons) released into the atmosphere is gathered back somewhere or lost in space forever?

I can take this particles as energy source and since they are in state of excited to begin with, a ghost could easily absorb it and use it as energy source.

"Um, no, this is not how a laser works. “Laser” stands for Light Amplification by the Stimulated Emission of Radiation. Basically, a lot of energy is pumped into an excitable gas, and a very small portion of that energy is re-emitted as a coherent stream of light. The laser beam is not “condensed light.” Quite a lot more energy goes into the laser than comes out the other end as coherent light. In any event, the laser works only as long as you keep pouring energy into it. "

My reply : And where does things like ruby crystals come into play? I heard that industrial lasers uses the laser beams stronger.

"Oh good grief, must I stipulate that you’re not to tamper with the system?

Very well: How’s this? An object -- any object -- that is unsupported and is dropped in a vacuum will accelerate downward at a rate determined by the local gravitational field. Its mass and composition are irrelevant.

Incidentally, Apollo astronauts demonstrated this by simultaneously dropping a feather and a hammer while standing on the Moon’s surface. They fell at the same rate, just as predicted.

If you truly believe that there are no well-established physical principles, I invite you to perform the following experiment. Using the power of your mind levitate yourself to a point 2 meters above the ground, and hover there for 30 seconds. No cheating, now. If you can do it, you will not only have disproved an awful lot of modern physics, but you can collect over a million dollars from the James Randi Foundation."

My reply : OK. Acceptable. James who?

"We don’t have a complete understanding of the world around us, but we have what seems to be a pretty darned good understanding of it.
Ghosts, if they exist, demonstrate properties which are incompatible with our perceived understanding of the world around us.
So far, no one has produced evidence of “ghosts” that cannot be explained through invocation of known phenomena such as hallucinations, fakery, camera malfunction, etc."

Therefore, either ghosts don’t exist, or we’re profoundly wrong about a lot of the things that we think we understand about how the world works. It’s possible, but it’s not the way to bet."

My reply : I will go with your explaination for the time being since lack of scientific data especially one energy matters.

Seraphim

"So you are possessed but have no recollection of what happened?

Wow, and to think all I did was ask too many questions and get told to "SHUT UP!" "

My reply : I do have recollection of waking up a few time througtout that day, opening my eyes and looking at people around me (one of them there was a priest, and I do remember the place I was at) but I went offline moments later.

I "slept" throughout the whole day (from morning, till about 8.00 or 9.00 in the evening) and remember waking up at night, walking out and been stared at in a odd way (I think I know how Linda Blair must have felt after Exorcise the movie).

The funny thing was, this recollection of the events slowly emerged a few months after my experiences, like remembering a dream.

I don't think you were ever possessed, Kelly, I just think you asked too many questions which adults around you couldn't answer, thus they shut you up by stating that you are possessed and that is the reason you asked question.

As for as I know, I never asked any questions to the priest when I opened my eyes and see his face. If I did asked, the question could be "Why the Hell you are hitting me with that Neam leaves?" And I don't even asked anything when I woke up that night either, it was just like a dream to me which for some strange reason, couldn't wake up.

So, coming from a ex-possessed person to another alleged possessed person, I hereby certify you to be normal except for a overcurios mind and lack of adults to answer it properly.

echidna

Awesome Seraphim. If LR can deal with this then I believe that he deserves to have a whole new excessive attentiveness disorder named after him.

From someone with less time & patience than either of you, Seraphim it is clear that your knowledge of contemporary science is slightly short of Year 10 (age 16 or 17 here).

Can I just say that the scientific community which comprises people far more conversant in science than either you or I, utterly rejects the existence of paranormal phenomena, as does the business community despite the potentially quillions of dollars which could be earned by understanding it, if it existed at all.

Where the paranormal does exist, is in the minds of the uneducated, uninformed, in the superstitions of societies which have not modernised, and in the charlatanism of those who would fraudulently exploit the weak-minded, of which there are countless.

I suggest if you want to genuinely understand, then remedial science courses are probably the best way to go. Otherwise best to retain your superstitions as simply folklore, but please don’t try to scientifically justify them, because the paranormal is just simply inconsistent with modern scientific understanding by definition.

Para = beyond, Normal

Trying to scientifically prove the paranormal is like drawing a 4-sided triangle, a ridiculous waste of time.

If ghosts were at all scientific then they could be scientifically detected. They can’t therefore they aren’t. Using terms like energy & mass is ridiculous for ghosts because if they were at all associated with these properties they would be detectable.

For Christ’s sake we can detect a single photon & yet no one’s come up with a single ghost yet.

Mad Kally

Thanks!