Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vaelarin · 04-29-2002, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Terracotta:
I've been to some more "progressive" ones that don't seem to have the cultish views, but of course those congregations are hated by many in the "true" CofC.

I think that sums it up well. There are some genuinely nice people and even a few genuinely nice churches, but by and large they are as described everywhere else in this thread. The real problem is, most all of them look nice until you really get involved with them. Then their cult side shows up.

As far as racism and the CoC going hand in hand, I'm not sure I can give an opinion on that. I know that racism was open and blantant in all of the CoC's I've been a member of (4 total, over 20 years), but I also grew up in the deep South where rural white people overwhelmingly hold racist beliefs. I think if anything, the CoC here typifies the rural southern attitudes of racism, isolationism, rigid traditionalism, and the mistrust of outsiders.

B. H. Manners · 04-29-2002, 08:10 PM

Vaelarian,

True, racism was a part of southern culture, which as a member of a former (pre-civil war) slave owning family I am ashamed of.

However, if the Bible was "the truth" and the CoC the "true church" shouldn't they have been able to read and study the "good book" and transcend their own culture?

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]

Terracotta · 04-30-2002, 05:28 AM

Quote:

However, if the Bible was "the truth" and the CoC the "true church" shouldn't they have been able to read and study the "good book" and transcend their own culture?

That's precisely what I have never been able to understand. Racism in churches is the ultimate hypocrisy. If I had to guess, I'd postulate that the CoC's I've been involved in (and the CoC schools I went to) are 85-95% white. Some were 100%. I never really saw any active racism as far as a church as a whole goes, but I sure heard a lot from individual mouths. My grandmother, for instance. She told me years ago that she didn't like a friend of my sister's because she was black, and that if she or I were to ever want to date a black man, she "would just die" (insert vocal sob here). I never understood that, and that one statement sticks with me to this very day.

BH, I think you're right when you say that the CoC is an "elitist" group of people. I experienced a LOT of the "us versus them" mentality with regard to other denominations (oh, but the CoC isn't a "denomination," it's the TRUE CHURCH

). I attended a church within walking distance of my house for a few years. Between my parents' house and that church, there were 4 other churches of other denominations that my church had nothing to do with. It used to make me sad that "God's children" couldn't get along. Now it makes me sad that so many consider themselves to be "God's children" and miss out on so much of life...

Another "horror story" about Harding (and the general CoC attitude). For those who don't know, it's a big school in a small town. Searcy pretty much owes its present existence to Harding. There are many, many CoC's in the town, but there are also a lot of Baptist and Methodist congregations. I remember once that the churches in the community (not the CoC's) were planning a clothes/food drive or something like that to aid the community. Every church in the town EXCEPT the CoC's participated. The CoC didn't want to participate in helping the less fortunate because - HORRORS - they would be joining with "the others." Attitudes like that really set me off and eventually cured my denominationalism. I stopped attending CoC's and started attending non-denominational churches shortly after that.

Thanks for starting this thread, BH! I started one when I first joined the SecWeb, but it didn't get this involved. This is actually therapeutic for me.

brighid · 04-30-2002, 06:01 AM

Terracotta,

It’s really not all that different in many other denominations, at least with racism and elitism. I grew up in an area that was predominately Polish and Italian Catholic. My mother still believes that if you aren’t Catholic you are less than worthy and in most cases less than human. Now add any non-white racial background and homosexuality and you have got the ultimate evil in her mind. Pretty much, most of the world’s populations are persona non grata to her. I was raised in an extremely racist home. I was told never to bring a black man home, that MLK Jr. was a violent, evil man and that blacks were lazy and stupid and WANTED to be on welfare and live in the ghetto. Once, my father was dropping me off at a local amusement park that kids hung out at and asked who I would be meeting. When I commented that it would be a friend with a very Hispanic last name he said, “My daughter won’t be hanging out with any spic!” I looked at him, rolled my eyes and said, “Yes I will be hanging out with her. She is a good person and I don’t give a shit what color his skin is. So make sure you are here at 9pm to pick us up!” He was there and I have had a life long friendship with said “Spic.”

My father has relinquished many of his racist views. He even bought his biracial grandson (my baby) a book of African Fables and has acknowledged and changed many of his views. Now, my rabidly fundamentalist Catholic mother still clings to those views and insists that my son is “different” and she doesn’t consider him “black.”

I have disassociated myself with organizations and people who hold such stupid views. My circle of friends consists of every background and that is the way it is going to always be. Stupid people will find whatever justification they can create in order to feel righteous in hating others. If there is this God and this Satan, the actions of so many Christians faiths is ample evidence for me that their Satan has full control and any loving and benevolent God is powerless.

Brighid

Coragyps · 04-30-2002, 06:48 AM

This thread reminded me of a conversation I had with a (non-religious) architect who built a lot of churches. He claimed that Hell was really on earth, and consisted of getting a contract to do a Church of Christ. If Bro. Jim Bob gave the money for the carpet, he could be absolutely certain that Mrs. Jim Bob would be the one to specify the color and style, and it made no difference to her if that conflicted with Mrs. Jimmy Joe's specification for pew cushions.....
and on ad infinitum.

Talulah · 04-30-2002, 07:22 AM

However, if the Bible was "the truth" and the CoC the "true church" shouldn't they have been able to read and study the "good book" and transcend their own culture?

But BH, that would be assuming that the 'good book' encourages equality and forbids slavery and repression of minorities and women.

I went through a really fanatical period when I first started college where I read the bible and felt compelled to do EVERYTHING that it said. I went around asking questions about head coverings and fasting and wondered if I was evil because I wore gold. I thought it was shameful for a woman to speak at all in worship or to talk to a man about the bible. I think I was trying to justify myself with strict interpretation and obediance.

When people started to try to explain to me how those things 'don't apply today' or were just 'cultural things,' I got my bible and read it viligently and eventually came to the conclusion that the bible really does say these things. The fact that the 'one true church' was unable to see what the bible clearly stated was one of the first nails in the coffin of my religious belief.

I started reading things by liberal brethern but came to the conclusion that they too were making the scriptures say what they wanted. I then started looking on the internet and other places for a church that held to EXACTLY what the bible said. I hit a road block when it came to believing in baptism for the remission of sins.

So, in the end, it started to slowly dawn on me that there wasn't a church on earth that REALLY held to the exact plan of life or worship as taught by the bible. This meant that the CoC was wrong as was everyone else. If the 'one true church' was wrong...WOW...that was something to think about....and so here I am.

B. H. Manners · 04-30-2002, 08:43 AM

[QUOTE BT TERRACOTA] Thanks for starting this thread, BH! I started one when I first joined the SecWeb, but it didn't get this involved. This is actually therapeutic for me.

[/QB][/QUOTE]

I am glad to please Terrecota. I am an atheist who is not afraid of love contrary to what our friend Booty/Brojees thinks. I saw all the pain and suffering and had to minister to you.

B. H. Manners · 04-30-2002, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Talulah:
However, if the Bible was "the truth" and the CoC the "true church" shouldn't they have been able to read and study the "good book" and transcend their own culture?

But BH, that would be assuming that the 'good book' encourages equality and forbids slavery and repression of minorities and women.

I went through a really fanatical period when I first started college where I read the bible and felt compelled to do EVERYTHING that it said. I went around asking questions about head coverings and fasting and wondered if I was evil because I wore gold. I thought it was shameful for a woman to speak at all in worship or to talk to a man about the bible. I think I was trying to justify myself with strict interpretation and obediance.

When people started to try to explain to me how those things 'don't apply today' or were just 'cultural things,' I got my bible and read it viligently and eventually came to the conclusion that the bible really does say these things. The fact that the 'one true church' was unable to see what the bible clearly stated was one of the first nails in the coffin of my religious belief.

I started reading things by liberal brethern but came to the conclusion that they too were making the scriptures say what they wanted. I then started looking on the internet and other places for a church that held to EXACTLY what the bible said. I hit a road block when it came to believing in baptism for the remission of sins.

So, in the end, it started to slowly dawn on me that there wasn't a church on earth that REALLY held to the exact plan of life or worship as taught by the bible. This meant that the CoC was wrong as was everyone else. If the 'one true church' was wrong...WOW...that was something to think about....and so here I am.

Are you daring to insinuate that some Christians are developing a sense of morality other than that found in the Bible?

Are you saying that Christians who oppose racism are wrong by going against God's word!

It sure looks to me like it! SHHHHH, don't tell them that.

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]

B. H. Manners · 04-30-2002, 11:23 AM

Let me throw out some more comments and questions. I would like to see what all of you think about them and provide feedback to me.

As all of you are aware, the CoC resulted from a split in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ
movement back in 1906 (although the fights had been going 40 years). When the split occurred the Disciples kept all the colleges, all the educated and formally trained ministers, most of the property and most of the wealthy and middle class members. The COC members tended to be poorer, uneducated, lay untrained preachers and very much zealous. Now it is true that we got the likes of N.B. Hardeman, Floyd Decker, and others later. But they actually came from the Christian Church out of protest that the DoC was going "liberal" in the sense their ministers were beginning to doubt inerrancy, virgin birth, ect. They also hated the episcopalian style church government and strong missionary society the Disciples were developing. Keep in mind to that up until the late 50's and early 60's most Christian Churches held the same "pattern theology" ideas that the CoC held. They just disagreed over what the pattern allowed. Many Christian Churches then and a few now have the same attitudes towards other "denominations" that the CoC has. I bet most of you did not know that about Hardeman did you?

Tell me, do you think that a lot of the dogmatism and slander against other churches in part was fed by the jealousy of CoC'ers towards their richer and better educated religious rivals?

Do you think that maybe a lot of the people enjoyed hearing sermons against the Episcopal Church down the road for being "false" but where some of the CoC members boss went to church? Was it a form of protest subconsciously?

Do you think the reason a lot of CoC original preachers were so spiteful and dogmantic was to put on a front to make up for lack of formal theological training? Do you think this anti-intellectualism developed because of what happened with the Disciples splitup?

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]

Talulah · 04-30-2002, 11:59 AM

Nahh son...we jest know we are right 'cause the good book tells us so and anyone with a shred 'o commen since can read it and see for themselves. Those thar liberal's just don't wanna accept God's awmighty authority.

Seriously though, rural poor people seem to be a lot more conservative and dogmatic. I think this is why the church of christ is not growing and is declining...people aren't that naive anymore. (perhaps)

BH, you profaner of all that is holy, didn't you know that the other churches broke off of US because they were straying?

04-29-2002, 08:10 PM	#32
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	Vaelarian, True, racism was a part of southern culture, which as a member of a former (pre-civil war) slave owning family I am ashamed of. However, if the Bible was "the truth" and the CoC the "true church" shouldn't they have been able to read and study the "good book" and transcend their own culture? [ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: BH ] [ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]</p>

04-30-2002, 11:23 AM	#39
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	Let me throw out some more comments and questions. I would like to see what all of you think about them and provide feedback to me. As all of you are aware, the CoC resulted from a split in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ movement back in 1906 (although the fights had been going 40 years). When the split occurred the Disciples kept all the colleges, all the educated and formally trained ministers, most of the property and most of the wealthy and middle class members. The COC members tended to be poorer, uneducated, lay untrained preachers and very much zealous. Now it is true that we got the likes of N.B. Hardeman, Floyd Decker, and others later. But they actually came from the Christian Church out of protest that the DoC was going "liberal" in the sense their ministers were beginning to doubt inerrancy, virgin birth, ect. They also hated the episcopalian style church government and strong missionary society the Disciples were developing. Keep in mind to that up until the late 50's and early 60's most Christian Churches held the same "pattern theology" ideas that the CoC held. They just disagreed over what the pattern allowed. Many Christian Churches then and a few now have the same attitudes towards other "denominations" that the CoC has. I bet most of you did not know that about Hardeman did you? Tell me, do you think that a lot of the dogmatism and slander against other churches in part was fed by the jealousy of CoC'ers towards their richer and better educated religious rivals? Do you think that maybe a lot of the people enjoyed hearing sermons against the Episcopal Church down the road for being "false" but where some of the CoC members boss went to church? Was it a form of protest subconsciously? Do you think the reason a lot of CoC original preachers were so spiteful and dogmantic was to put on a front to make up for lack of formal theological training? Do you think this anti-intellectualism developed because of what happened with the Disciples splitup? [ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]</p>

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04-30-2002, 06:01 AM	#34
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Terracotta, It’s really not all that different in many other denominations, at least with racism and elitism. I grew up in an area that was predominately Polish and Italian Catholic. My mother still believes that if you aren’t Catholic you are less than worthy and in most cases less than human. Now add any non-white racial background and homosexuality and you have got the ultimate evil in her mind. Pretty much, most of the world’s populations are persona non grata to her. I was raised in an extremely racist home. I was told never to bring a black man home, that MLK Jr. was a violent, evil man and that blacks were lazy and stupid and WANTED to be on welfare and live in the ghetto. Once, my father was dropping me off at a local amusement park that kids hung out at and asked who I would be meeting. When I commented that it would be a friend with a very Hispanic last name he said, “My daughter won’t be hanging out with any spic!” I looked at him, rolled my eyes and said, “Yes I will be hanging out with her. She is a good person and I don’t give a shit what color his skin is. So make sure you are here at 9pm to pick us up!” He was there and I have had a life long friendship with said “Spic.” My father has relinquished many of his racist views. He even bought his biracial grandson (my baby) a book of African Fables and has acknowledged and changed many of his views. Now, my rabidly fundamentalist Catholic mother still clings to those views and insists that my son is “different” and she doesn’t consider him “black.” I have disassociated myself with organizations and people who hold such stupid views. My circle of friends consists of every background and that is the way it is going to always be. Stupid people will find whatever justification they can create in order to feel righteous in hating others. If there is this God and this Satan, the actions of so many Christians faiths is ample evidence for me that their Satan has full control and any loving and benevolent God is powerless. Brighid

04-30-2002, 06:48 AM	#35
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	This thread reminded me of a conversation I had with a (non-religious) architect who built a lot of churches. He claimed that Hell was really on earth, and consisted of getting a contract to do a Church of Christ. If Bro. Jim Bob gave the money for the carpet, he could be absolutely certain that Mrs. Jim Bob would be the one to specify the color and style, and it made no difference to her if that conflicted with Mrs. Jimmy Joe's specification for pew cushions..... and on ad infinitum.

04-30-2002, 07:22 AM	#36
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	However, if the Bible was "the truth" and the CoC the "true church" shouldn't they have been able to read and study the "good book" and transcend their own culture? But BH, that would be assuming that the 'good book' encourages equality and forbids slavery and repression of minorities and women. I went through a really fanatical period when I first started college where I read the bible and felt compelled to do EVERYTHING that it said. I went around asking questions about head coverings and fasting and wondered if I was evil because I wore gold. I thought it was shameful for a woman to speak at all in worship or to talk to a man about the bible. I think I was trying to justify myself with strict interpretation and obediance. When people started to try to explain to me how those things 'don't apply today' or were just 'cultural things,' I got my bible and read it viligently and eventually came to the conclusion that the bible really does say these things. The fact that the 'one true church' was unable to see what the bible clearly stated was one of the first nails in the coffin of my religious belief. I started reading things by liberal brethern but came to the conclusion that they too were making the scriptures say what they wanted. I then started looking on the internet and other places for a church that held to EXACTLY what the bible said. I hit a road block when it came to believing in baptism for the remission of sins. So, in the end, it started to slowly dawn on me that there wasn't a church on earth that REALLY held to the exact plan of life or worship as taught by the bible. This meant that the CoC was wrong as was everyone else. If the 'one true church' was wrong...WOW...that was something to think about....and so here I am.

04-30-2002, 08:43 AM	#37
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	[QUOTE BT TERRACOTA] Thanks for starting this thread, BH! I started one when I first joined the SecWeb, but it didn't get this involved. This is actually therapeutic for me. [/QB][/QUOTE] I am glad to please Terrecota. I am an atheist who is not afraid of love contrary to what our friend Booty/Brojees thinks. I saw all the pain and suffering and had to minister to you.

04-30-2002, 11:59 AM	#40
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	Nahh son...we jest know we are right 'cause the good book tells us so and anyone with a shred 'o commen since can read it and see for themselves. Those thar liberal's just don't wanna accept God's awmighty authority. Seriously though, rural poor people seem to be a lot more conservative and dogmatic. I think this is why the church of christ is not growing and is declining...people aren't that naive anymore. (perhaps) BH, you profaner of all that is holy, didn't you know that the other churches broke off of US because they were straying?

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