Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Christopher Lord · 09-08-2002, 01:52 PM

"Is human intelligence required to choose? If your answer is yes, then only humans have choice, if it is no, then a computer program can choose. What is your answer?"

I've answered this implicitly many times in this topic, but I'll be more explicit, just for you.

YES, computers can make genuine choices. Most typically, computer games are programmed in a VERY deterministic way however, which precludes the possibilty that there is an agent making choices between alternatives. These games are simply responding to integer-math-based programming and input, regardless of how complex that may be.

NO, humans are not always making genuine choices. We ride the rails quite often as well. For example, our heart, although controlled by the brain, is under a mostly deterministic system. We DO have an agent capable of making real choices when the inputs are fuzzy enough, however. This is something different from the HOLY dictionary definition of choice that some seem to be stuck on.

This entire topic is disenfranchising. People seem to be either stuck in their own view of monolithic freewill/determinisim, or english is simply failing me. Aplogies if this is the case.

I am simply of the opinion that it is not CUT AND DRY EITHER OR determinisim OR pure free will. The brain is a fuzzy system which, although ultimately based on physical systems, is in fact a very tall pile of imperfect abstraction layers and processors, dealing with analog inputs and delivering analog ouputs.

This is completely at odds with the design of a digital system, or even those emulations of neurons on a digital system i've seen.

K · 09-08-2002, 02:01 PM

Human intelligence is not required to make a choice.

I believe humans are deterministic just like computer programs are.

This discussion would probably go smoother if we defined terms. For instance, are some of us implying a will when we use the word while others just mean a seletion?

Starboy · 09-08-2002, 02:05 PM

What is the difference between having and making a choice and free will? Does the mechanism of making the choice determine if free will has been exercised? If I decide to make a choice by flipping a coin, is that free will? What is free will?

K · 09-08-2002, 02:20 PM

Starboy:

Good question. I personally don't believe in free will. I think we believe we have free will because we are conscious and can observe the choices our brains make.

Starboy · 09-08-2002, 02:48 PM

I prefer to think of free will as having a choice; the exact mechanism of choosing is unimportant. With that definition all things that can exercise choice have free will. And choosing randomly is an exercise of choice. Free will is not restricted to the animate. I consider myself to be a machine and it is arrogant of me to allow free will only to humans and not to other machines. Of course it is the job of engineers to make machines with no free will, but if they wanted to, it would be easy to do it. Unfortunately, no one wants to buy a car that decides when it will start and where it will go.

Starboy

[ September 08, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

Kent Stevens · 09-08-2002, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Yes Kent, what is your point? Are you saying that creatures with free will don't do the same thing?

No, if you play tic tac toe then quite often you might be forced to play a certain move or your oponent wins immediately. This can also apply to other games such as Chess or Draughts.

My take on free will is discussed in another thread, but it seems to me that free will does not exist. Nothing has free will. We have freedom when we are not coerced or restrained about doing certain things. But freedom as such, is distinct from the concept of free will.

[ September 08, 2002: Message edited by: Kent Stevens ]</p>

Starboy · 09-08-2002, 06:21 PM

The existence of free will depends on what you mean by free will. Kent, what do you mean by free will?

Starboy

Kent Stevens · 09-09-2002, 01:52 AM

Free will can mean a number of different things.

It can mean that what we choose is uncaused by physical events. In this way God does not cause us to sin with how he created the Universe because our choices act outside of physical necessity.

Maybe the commonest feeling associated with free will is the idea that we could have done something different. We could have chosen a different move in a game. We think that a machine does not have free will because what it choses is predictable. We think that a machine does not have free will because it will respond in exactly the same way given the same inputs. But what we did in a game must have occured due to various causes. In this way we are no different from a complex unpredictable machine. If a complex machine does not have free will then neither do we.

Adrian Selby · 09-09-2002, 06:04 AM

A point related to the subject and not the thread so far, there was a point in the game Black and White, as it was being developed (its essentially a very advanced AI system for a pet that you use to defeat other wizards) where the pet that was trained to be good to villagers and help them noticed that there was a boulder that the villagers had to walk around on their route to the materials they were harvesting. The creature walked over to the boulder and lifted it out of the way for them. This specific behaviour was not at all anticipated by the programmers, despite putting in very many advanced AI parameters for behaviour in general.

Thus, the programmers were surprised by the behaviour of something they'd created when it solved a problem in the game that they had not foreseen, given the creature had not been told prior to activation about the boulder, and the boulder indeed was an element in the environment not purposely placed there for the reason of delaying the villagers.

I'm not sure how that adds, except to note that for me its evidence that AI will develop with much wider parameters as time goes by, and that we are not different in kind, but in complexity only with regard to consciousness. The company's latest game is meant to be working on AI far in advance of that in Black and White, perhaps worth watching out for when it arrives, as the programmers are among the best in the world.

Starboy · 09-09-2002, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kent Stevens:
<strong>We think that a machine does not have free will because what it choses is predictable. We think that a machine does not have free will because it will respond in exactly the same way given the same inputs. But what we did in a game must have occured due to various causes. In this way we are no different from a complex unpredictable machine. If a complex machine does not have free will then neither do we.</strong>

What about a pair of dice. Is that machine to complicated or simple to have free will?

Starboy

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09-08-2002, 01:52 PM	#41
Christopher Lord Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 808	"Is human intelligence required to choose? If your answer is yes, then only humans have choice, if it is no, then a computer program can choose. What is your answer?" I've answered this implicitly many times in this topic, but I'll be more explicit, just for you. YES, computers can make genuine choices. Most typically, computer games are programmed in a VERY deterministic way however, which precludes the possibilty that there is an agent making choices between alternatives. These games are simply responding to integer-math-based programming and input, regardless of how complex that may be. NO, humans are not always making genuine choices. We ride the rails quite often as well. For example, our heart, although controlled by the brain, is under a mostly deterministic system. We DO have an agent capable of making real choices when the inputs are fuzzy enough, however. This is something different from the HOLY dictionary definition of choice that some seem to be stuck on. This entire topic is disenfranchising. People seem to be either stuck in their own view of monolithic freewill/determinisim, or english is simply failing me. Aplogies if this is the case. I am simply of the opinion that it is not CUT AND DRY EITHER OR determinisim OR pure free will. The brain is a fuzzy system which, although ultimately based on physical systems, is in fact a very tall pile of imperfect abstraction layers and processors, dealing with analog inputs and delivering analog ouputs. This is completely at odds with the design of a digital system, or even those emulations of neurons on a digital system i've seen.

09-08-2002, 02:01 PM	#42
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Human intelligence is not required to make a choice. I believe humans are deterministic just like computer programs are. This discussion would probably go smoother if we defined terms. For instance, are some of us implying a will when we use the word while others just mean a seletion?

09-08-2002, 02:05 PM	#43
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	What is the difference between having and making a choice and free will? Does the mechanism of making the choice determine if free will has been exercised? If I decide to make a choice by flipping a coin, is that free will? What is free will?

09-08-2002, 02:20 PM	#44
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Starboy: Good question. I personally don't believe in free will. I think we believe we have free will because we are conscious and can observe the choices our brains make.

09-08-2002, 02:48 PM	#45
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	I prefer to think of free will as having a choice; the exact mechanism of choosing is unimportant. With that definition all things that can exercise choice have free will. And choosing randomly is an exercise of choice. Free will is not restricted to the animate. I consider myself to be a machine and it is arrogant of me to allow free will only to humans and not to other machines. Of course it is the job of engineers to make machines with no free will, but if they wanted to, it would be easy to do it. Unfortunately, no one wants to buy a car that decides when it will start and where it will go. Starboy [ September 08, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

09-08-2002, 06:21 PM	#47
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	The existence of free will depends on what you mean by free will. Kent, what do you mean by free will? Starboy

09-09-2002, 01:52 AM	#48
Kent Stevens Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 484	Free will can mean a number of different things. It can mean that what we choose is uncaused by physical events. In this way God does not cause us to sin with how he created the Universe because our choices act outside of physical necessity. Maybe the commonest feeling associated with free will is the idea that we could have done something different. We could have chosen a different move in a game. We think that a machine does not have free will because what it choses is predictable. We think that a machine does not have free will because it will respond in exactly the same way given the same inputs. But what we did in a game must have occured due to various causes. In this way we are no different from a complex unpredictable machine. If a complex machine does not have free will then neither do we.

09-09-2002, 06:04 AM	#49
Adrian Selby Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Farnham, UK Posts: 859	A point related to the subject and not the thread so far, there was a point in the game Black and White, as it was being developed (its essentially a very advanced AI system for a pet that you use to defeat other wizards) where the pet that was trained to be good to villagers and help them noticed that there was a boulder that the villagers had to walk around on their route to the materials they were harvesting. The creature walked over to the boulder and lifted it out of the way for them. This specific behaviour was not at all anticipated by the programmers, despite putting in very many advanced AI parameters for behaviour in general. Thus, the programmers were surprised by the behaviour of something they'd created when it solved a problem in the game that they had not foreseen, given the creature had not been told prior to activation about the boulder, and the boulder indeed was an element in the environment not purposely placed there for the reason of delaying the villagers. I'm not sure how that adds, except to note that for me its evidence that AI will develop with much wider parameters as time goes by, and that we are not different in kind, but in complexity only with regard to consciousness. The company's latest game is meant to be working on AI far in advance of that in Black and White, perhaps worth watching out for when it arrives, as the programmers are among the best in the world.

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