AJ113

Well Sabine, at last we agree on something.

By implication, your own faith is not based on reason, so tell me, how do you know you've chosen the right god?

Sabine Grant

Mike is right. Don't blame "Mein Kampf" on being rational. While I don't claim to know exactly what thought process is used in it, somewhere in there it has to start with faulty assumptions. When you say things like "These types of people are bad..." you are automatically starting off irrationally. If someone says "1+1=4" he can use "logical"reasoning to say "therefore 2+2=8", but since he had a faulty premise the reasoning is nonsense, not rational thought.

Besides, the Old Testament uses thinking similar to Mein Kampf. God was saying things like "Such and such tribe are a bunch of pagan scum so you must kill them all. Babies and animals included." Sounds like genocide to me. [/QUOTE]

I never wrote or claimed that Mein Kampf was rational... I wrote " that Hitler used a rational thought process to justify the final solution". I would appreciate if you quote me correctly if you wish to pursue a dialogue with me. Thanks!
In other words, I pointed to how the use of a rational thought process can lead to evil actions. I do not know if you read Mein Kampf but the train of arguments he presented created an ideology which seduced many. And among them individuals who were far from being ignorant or uneducated.
If you accept for example that one of his sources of inspiration was the nietzschean ideology leading to the creation of a supreme arian race, Hitler used a philosophical platform to concieve his own ideology. He also mixed some of Schoppenhauer's philosophy.
Of course one can argue that philosophy is not necessarly a science of reason and logic.
Are you disagreeing that a rational thought process can lead to evil consequences?

Sabine Grant

I am suggesting that reason can produce evil. Also suggesting that a mind which cannot use rational thinking dwells on simplistic concepts. The " idiot du village" who is mostly an individual suffering of what is known as cretinism ( a genetical deffect first discovered in the Alpes) is far from being ignorant. He can be semi educated yet not be able to process information to use for analytical or deduction thought process. It is not a matter of being ignorant. It is a matter of not being able to process acquired information and apply it to daily reasoning.

Sabine Grant

In order for me to argue the validity of my choice I would have had to claim that I have chosen the " right god". If you have browsed in some of the threads which touched base with reasons as to why some theists in this forum are christians, I have already explained my choice. My choice is not based on the need to claim to be absolutly right. My choice was based on the potential of personal transformation the teachings of Christ offers. My choice was based on my personal needs and how Christ meets those needs.
I do not think any theist can claim honestly to have chosen the " right god" until they can actualy meet the Creator. For some, God is something to look forward to in the afterlife..... for others, it is a now and then experience which allows them to be a better version of themselves.

Sabine Grant

I do not know where you found that the presumed location of the first invidual who illustrated the Aryan race was the garden of Eden... can you provide more documentation on that claim? Aryan comes from the name Ariane which was originaly the old territory of Persia.
I have not studied any passages of Mein Kampf in which Hitler claims to follow God's Will to restore the Aryan race which started with Adam. Considering that his main inspiration to the Aryan supreme race was driven by the works of Nietzsche who promotes zoroastrian philosophy, I wonder how the author of that web site can reconciliate that reality with what you claim the author states.
Also... your analysis as to the roots of antisemitism in Europe lacks to reveal the fact that jews were from the Middle Ages skilled in finances. They were known to be money lenders ( ancestors of the banking system). Hitler was plagued by the notion of the ability for jewish people to produce wealth. It is a well known fact that he ransacked jewish wealth as part of his plan to exterminate the jewish race. Add that notion to pan germanism which was a nationalistic current already promoted in the late 1800's, and you have the recipe for Hitler's main motivation to find millions who rallied to national socialism.
He knew how to exploit the readiness of german people to rid off the folks who owned international finances. He happened to rise in the political realm of Germany at the " right time".
There is not much known about Hitler's spiritual life. I am also curious as to where the term " altar boy " ( your quote) comes from.

Luiseach

How does reason produce evil? Do you have examples?

Thank you for the clarification of l'idiot du village...

Please allow me to rephrase my question, again for clarification:

Are you suggesting that an inability to reason is better than an ability to reason?

Sabine Grant

Again... I thought I had shown in my previous posts where I commented on Hitler using a rational thought process which emcompassed arguments related to history, politics, economy, genetics, philosophy etc.....as an example of how it can produce evil.
I am not suggesting that the absence of reason is better than the ability to reason. I am pointing to the fact that absence of reason does not necessarly mean evil. I am balancing both arguments.

Luiseach

Adolf Hitler was a sociopath, though, was he not?

Whew!

Sabine Grant

I am not sure I understand where you are leading to.. do you need my personal evaluation to confirm that Hitler was a sociopath or are you testing whether or not I can recognize he was capable of manipulating his entourage and the public into believing his ideology was the best for a " Greater Germany"?
Sociopaths are extremely skilled individuals when it comes to manipulating their entourage. They use rational arguments to convince their audience.
How does the fact that Hitler would be a sociopath refute my belief that the use of a rational thought process can produce evil?

Sabine Grant

Am I to assume from that brief comment that you lean to believe that the absence of a rational thought process cannot be valued under any circumstances?
I will relate to you a personal experience..... I read a poem written by a Down Syndrom age 16. I found myself envying the simplicity of his mind as he could delight in the most common things. Things I have taken for granted myself. I realized that my own reason had kept me from considering enjoying those details of daily life. It is an experience I wish for you as others to live. It is quite humbling.