meritocrat

But the notion of becoming stronger from adversity is not a wholly unfeasible one.

sweep

opera nut: thanks for your story. A sad fact of life, and one that many here can relate> kung fu, anyone?

but the reality of getting a hardball in the nuts refutes any notion of feasible adversity. speak english boy!

'hmm, four people are holding me down, and the guy with the ball thinks it is fun to throw said ball at my groin. If my wedding tackle stays intact, and provided I don't get a hernia, I might grow from this experience'

meritocrat: If you read my last post properly you will see that after careful deliberation I decided that some people, such as myself, DO learn from bullys. BUT, I also quoted lady shea who, with her finger on the pulse, suggested that we all react differently to bullys. In other words not all of us will learn or benefit from being picked on. So, you are right and we are right depending on the picture we paint: different strokes for different folks.

Jamie_L

Again, it doesn't matter what people gain from being bullied.

Many people found strength and courage they never knew they had when they helped hide jews during the holocaust. That did not make the holocaust right.

Taking actions that thwart the desires of others is wrong. Good may come out of it, but that doesn't make it right. It may be human nature to do such things. That doesn't make it right. It may be impossible to stop such actions. That doesn't make it right.

This is the exact same kind of logic that apologetics use to defend against the Problem of Evil: Earthquakes, cancer, ebola, all these awful things that cause terrible suffering are necessary to make people virtuous and happy. Causing such torment is really an act of benevolence. A means to a greater good.

Baloney.

Jamie

Soyin Milka

I doubt Meritocrat will be able to offer the results of scientific studies to back up his claims. I spent some time searching databases of abstracts of articles published in scientific journals on mental health and found none showing benefits to having been bullied. Calling him an obtuse troll is more than justified.

I have an older brother who teaches mathematics in a tough high school. The teachers are scared of some of the bullies. "Taxing" is a problem. My brother is one of the few brave teachers unafraid of confronting bullies and doing something about bullying. But he drives a 1988 nissan sentra to school, because he got tired of vandalism and paint jobs.

Standing up by myself to bullies has been a counter-productive way to build up my character. It led me to spend a couple months in a juvenile detention center after I stabbed him. The previous day, he had caught and tortured my cat before abandoning it at our door. It had to be taken to the vet and euthanasied.

Adults not letting kids and teens deal with bullying on their own, making laws and rules about it, is society's way to stand up to bullies. It makes bullying more risky and difficult, but only cowardly bullies would complain about this.

Soyin

RevDahlia

Soyin, that's a horrible, horrible story.

Anybody want to step up and say that somebody torturing Soyin's pet to death was ultimately beneficial?

MzNeko

Soyin,

I would have stabbed him, too.

I have a cat, I've been bullied – but it's never combined so horribly in my life.

I've been following this thread for a while, but I keep getting too angry to comment rationally.

Majestyk

I still hold the position that the extreme nature of these anecdotes go beyond bullying.

The bully is never "good" if, they are acting out of malice.

Marine Corps Recruit Training (Boot Camp) is an example of bullying without mailce. It is my supposition that those that experienced Boot Camp, benefitted from the experience.

trientalis

That's an interesting point, Majestyk.

Mind you, when I looked up "to bully" on Merriam Webster, the primary definition was "to treat abusively". Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but it seems to me that malice is implicit in bullying.

The "toughening up" you mention from boot camp is an interesting exception. For the most part, I don't think the intent in boot camp is to cause psychological damage but to prepare a recruit to withstand the rigors of combat. I suspect that if it were possible to get the desired effect--discipline, group loyalty, courage and endurance under fire--without shouting at recruits and calling them maggots, the armed forces would consider trying a new approach.

On the other hand, bullying as seen in schools and civilian workplaces doesn't seem to support the same purpose of improving or preparing the victim for a freely chosen challenge but to amuse the bully by causing anguish in the victim. It doesn't improve one's performance in the classroom or office; on the contrary, it seems to be calculated to impair it. This would not seem to promote the social values of education and productivity, so I fail to see how society in general is served by such behavior.

Boot camp provides an interesting case, but for the most part, bullying does seem to be a matter of malice and suffering, and therefore should be discouraged.

Ab_Normal

Boot camp is also something undertaken voluntarily (except in times of the draft) by adults. Being the victim of bullying in childhood is not!

Soyin Milka

The bullies themselves need adults to put an end to bullying. It's not true that bullies have high self-esteem. Most of them are themselves the victims of abuse and neglect at home. Bullying is something they learned from their family and gives them a feeling of superiority that they need because in reality they feel crappy about themselves.

I'm not making that up. There's tons of scientific studies supporting my claims. Here's one and two nice quotes from it:

http://www.whittedclearylaw.com/FSL5...ks/links85.asp

Quote:
"Literature on aggression and familial factors has provided considerable support for the association between general aggressive behavior in youth and lack of family cohesion (Gorman-Smith, Tolan, Zelli, & Huesmann, 1996), inadequate parental supervision (Farrington, 1991), family violence (Thornberry, 1994), hostile discipline techniques (Loeber & Dishion, 1983) and poor modeling of problem-solving skills (Tolan, Cromwell, & Braswell, 1986). Moreover, investigations in other countries have found significant associations between familial characteristics and bullying behavior (Berdondini & Smith, 1996; Bowers, Smith, and Binney, 1994; Olweus, 1980, 1993). For example, based on studies with Scandinavian youth, Olweus (1980, 1993) reported that parenting style was of great significance in the development of bullying behaviors in young boys. He concluded that families of boys who bullied were often described as lacking in warmth, used physical violence within the family, and failed to monitor children’s activities outside the school. "

And:
"Research conducted outside of the U.S. suggested that students who bully were themselves at an increased risk of being physically abused and of having a criminal record as adults (e.g., Olweus, 1993). "

There are many reasons why adults should not let bullying go unchecked and I think they should include care for the well-being of the bullies.

Soyin