Devilnaut

Allow me to try to restate more succinctly (to tronvillain):


Using Hedonologist's disease example, how is it exactly that the copy AND the self who is doomed to die, are both your future selves? The one who is doomed to die seems (to me) to be to be your only future self. The copy is the future self of no one but the copy, which will begin its existence when it is created in the lab, regardless of whether or not false memories are planted in its brain.

What if you did indeed choose to have yourself copied on mars, while your original self died a quiet death? Would you have any way of actually knowing whether the copy was made or not? Is it actually relevant to the fact that you are going to die in a month's time? What if the cloning scientists simply lied to you about making your copy? I really don't see how it should matter to you.


devilnaut

tronvillain

No, I would not agree that my current self would essentially step into the teleporter and then cease to exist. The belief that one would is the last vestige of dualism that some materialists cling to.

From my last response to you:
The identical person arriving by Mars would be as good as a copy, but it's also ridiculously improbable. It's like speculating that my atoms might spontaneously reassemble themselves after the teleporter disintegrated me.

Devilnaut

My example of you modifying your features was meant to increase the probability. Since you hold that "At no point does the copy cease to be me - there is simply a smooth continuum from "me" to "not me.", couldn't you simply modify your features and memories until you happened to be exactly like someone else who already existed? Could you say to the scientists, "when my copy is made, I would like to be Michael Jordan" ... ???


Says you.

Could you detail exactly what you believe you would experience upon stepping into the teleporter, or, in the other example, having the diseaseless copy of yourself created?

devilnaut

tronvillain

How is it exactly that the copy AND the self who is doomed to die are both my future selves? There is a continous chain of experience between us - I can imagine becoming them, and they will remember being me.

The thought experiment assumes that the process works and an accurate copy is actually made. Obviously that would have to be established before people would be willing to undergo the process. An important thing to remember is that the "I" that exists before the copying is not the same "I" that exists afterwards. Afterwards, both the "original" and the "copy" have equally valid claims to being the original "I."

tronvillain

Yes, I say that the belief that one would die as as result of destructive teleportation is one of the last vestiges of dualism that some materialists cling to. It is as ridiculous as the belief in "free will."

Yes, but obviously that "copy" would be at the "not me" end of the continuum - in other words, not accurately described as a copy at all. There is no point at which the copy ceases to be me, just as there is no point at at which orange becomes yellow in the visible spectrum.

As far as I can tell, "I" would experience stepping into the teleporter, and then stepping out the other end. This appears to be the only possibility.

1sec

Did I say "puppet"?

I meant to say "dummy".

I still don't get it. Are you guys doing hard talk around here? I'm still trying to find the right wavelength in this part of the forum.

Is this the PHILOSOPHY section? I mean, this thread really belongs here?

I didn't know philosophy was so awesome.

Devilnaut

tronvillain, why do you see yours as the only option? I am at a loss as to why this appears so obvious to you, and I also don't understand how what I am suggesting implies dualism as opposed to materialism.

IMO, it is still not established that this is not an option:

You step into the teleporter, you die. Blackness, death. A copy lives on, but this affects the "you" that stepped into the teleporter in no way.


But, continuing on from last post.. (sorry if i seem like i'm prying but I am trying to get a handle on this )

If you think that you would step into the teleporter, and then from your perspective, "wake up" as the copy.. what do you believe you would experience when a copy of you is created and the first you is not destroyed? Would the first you be somehow aware of this copy? Or would you only experience "waking up" as the copy, once the first you dies?

Do you really think this issue is "as ridiculous as free will"?

devilnaut

tronvillain

1sec: The copy is not accurately labelled "puppet" or "dummy" any more than you are. Anyway, this is a valid philisophical issue. Do you have anything to contribute?

tronvillain

Why I see mine as the only option is not a question that I can answer. It's like asking why I only see one computer sitting here on my desk. You proposed this as another option:

Unfortunately, this does not appear to be a valid option under materialism. To make any sense of it requires a dualistic perspective, in which the self is somehow not a product of the brain and references to "blackess" and "death" have meaning. When I step into the teleporter, everything that is "me" ends, and at the other end everything that is "me" begins. You have yet to demonstrate that anything is wrong with this argument:
Asking what "I" will experience if a copy is made and the original is not destroyed is somewhat misleading, since there is no longer a single experience. "I" will step into the transporter and one "I" will step out the other end on Mars while another "I" will step out the other end on Earth. Obviously there is no magical connection between the two selves, so neither will be any more aware of the other than any other person, and neither will "wake up" as the other if they die.

And yes, I do think think this attachment to dualism is as ridiculous as belief in free will.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: tronvillain ]</p>

crocodile deathroll

This is an extremely hypothetical question, because first you have to prove that it is possible to emulate an exact copy of your original body and this of course is far easier said than done. Under our present technology we cannot even emulate a single enzyme let alone an entire human body, and I feel there is a good reason for this. One school of thought is that at the early stages of life on this planet there was a molecular scaffolding mechanism that allowed the proteins/RNA/DNA (which ever came first) or the chicken/egg scenario to spontaniously self organize them self into living systems very suddenly. To rebuild a new living system like you entire human body you would need that primeval molecular scaffolding, and we have no idea what it looks like because it has long since disappeared. Carbon fullarines an Buckey Balls may be putting us on the right track to developing these molecular scaffolds.

So much for reality, now for some serious science fiction

If you body can be emulated then if the original body is not destroyed then and since both material entities a emulating the same physical processes and the same neural processes and as such the same memories. Lets assume you are on Earth and you are teleported to Mars and the original copy on Earth the preserved. I speculate there will be a quantum coin flip between the 2 you's and you may well find your self on Mars and when you return to Earth you will meet an identical twin of yourself but since the original quale of yourself has split in 2 directions in a "Y" formation you are two completely separate individuals and you both only remember the same episodic memories up to the point you were teleported to Mars.
Some day on the further Star Trek space mission after meeting you original "you", you (which you think is you but is just the copy) have killed in a collision with an asteroid. In that case you switch back to the original person, because all those memories of you when you were a teleported copy were totally extinguished in the asteroid collision it would be subjectively as though though you had never existed in the first place and you will just find you self back on the original teleporter just continuing on as the original version of you. There
you will wait back on Earth till you identical copy returns to meet you. Then some day you will watch your identical copy take further Star Trek space mission after meeting you and get killed in that asteroid collusion, "God rest his soul" so to speak.