hastalavista2u

>>First of all,let me just say that I firmly believe that abortion is the act of killing a literal living being.
BUT,how can it also be 'murder' in the 1st,since that's what the OT Bible says,right?
Yeah,they used to have abortions all the time back then?!
Fact is that murder is actually defined in OT terms as "lying in wait" to kill.

Frankly,I am a bit fed up with my hard-core fundamentalist brothers taking such a rigid stance against this.
I mean,if you are going to preach that we all have 'free will' to choose how we behave,then how can you also infringe upon this same freedom to choose whether or not one wants to keep a potential "crack baby" or send it home to it's Maker?
I think many are putting themselves in the place of God,rather than letting God be the one to judge a persons actions.
Why not just chill out and let things remain as they are,which they will anyway regardless of how blue in the face some will get over this.
It seems that those who are the most 'MADD' at this are those who act like all those lost babies are no different than their own children?!
As if they were the ones who were gang-raped by some thugs in a dark alley,and left for dead?!
Heck,most of those have a hard enough time dealing with their husbands not taking out the trash!

But yet,they claim that abortion is playing God with human life,and that if abolished would put an end to promiscuous sexual practice in general.
I beg to differ,since there are still newborn babies being found in trash cans,even with this service readily available.
Perhaps the FAR Right should be more concerned with lobbying to make this more affordable for the lower classes?
Or maybe dead babies in bathrooms is more preferable than the standard medical procedure?!

Bottom line is that if young teenage girls want to have unprotected sex,then they will,regardless of the consequences.
That is one human act that they can't abolish!
Of course,if they could ever get rid of Internet Porn,then our youth wouldn't have any motivation to do such things?!?
"Think of the children!"--maybe they should be satisfied that their own are already so sheltered that they will only be asking about the 'birds and bees' instead of what type of contraceptive works best!

I say that as long as our leaders have the freedom to choose whether or not to drop bombs on civilian populations,and thus putting their own people at risk of retaliatory attacks--then shouldn't the FREE citizens have at least some control over what little remains of their own destiny?


You are now dismissed...


[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: Theitist ]</p>

Ab_Normal

Thank you, Theitist. I'd just like to add that my conservative, Catholic mother is strongly pro-choice.

edited 'cause it's impolite to misspell someone's handle (sorry)

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: Ab_Normal ]</p>

babelfish

What?!?!? Make something affordable for the lower classes?

NO! That smacks of SOCIALISM! An evil that ranks right up there with atheism, communism and satanism!

No, all those financially strapped women who find themselves in a "delicate condition" and can't afford to pay for an abortion can just keep their babies.

And if they can't afford to raise a child, why, there are thousands, if not millions of well-to-do, infertile couples out there who will gladly adopt that child (as long as it is white, healthy, and cute as a button)!

In fact, let's go back to the good old days, when adoptable babies out-numbered infertile couples, providing a veritable pool of desirable babies from which one could choose just the right one. It's just ridiculous how nowadays the supply of babies is so low that teenagers can rifle through stacks of photos of couples wanting to adopt and choose whichever one strikes their fancy. Why it's an insult, that's what it is!

(I apologize before-hand to all the adoptive parents on this board whom I've offended.)

Jagged

I remember hearing about this film when I was in the church, but I never saw it. It was referred to with a kind of awe by pro-life advocates. It was made in 1984 and looks rather like a B-grade horror movie:
<a href="http://www.silentscream.org/silent_e.htm" target="_blank"></a>
(click the image to see the text and still pictures from the film - **warning** tho the film supposedly focuses on the abortion of a 12 week-old fetus, after the "clinical" segment there are several VERY graphic pictures of late-term fetuses - piled, thrown in buckets, on the floor... not for the faint of heart.)

From The Silent Scream:
I don't know if this is still the official position of the pro-life movement or not.

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Jagged Little Pill ]</p>

Captain Pedantic

Do you know that in Brazil, where abortion is apparently illegal, large numbers of women every year are admitted to the emergency wings of hospitals suffering from injuries and infections relating to "back-street" abortions.

If abortion were made illegal in any place where it is currently legal, it is quite plain to me that we would see a sharp rise in the number of "back-street" abortions. There are plenty of women - respectable, decent women - still alive today who had abortions, in the plural, before abortion was legal in this country. They would, if asked, describe such techniques as injecting the uterus with soapy water, or taking some unspecified medicine, or even some more primitive method. There would be some woman or man - maybe qualified as a doctor, maybe not - who was known to perform these operations, and they generally wouldn't get turned over to the police because people would be too grateful for their services. Those that survived the deal without life-threatening injuries, of course.

If one was rich, back in those days, one could probably find an extremely expensive private hospital which would perform the operation. Again, these hospitals tended not to come to the attention of the police as they were too useful, and because in our society, which was even more class-ridden back then, one could get all the discretion one could afford.

Anyone who was too poor even for the "back-street" abortion would no doubt try to induce a miscarriage. The old "gin-and-hot-bath" trick, known for its mighty rate of failure, goes way back. Being kicked about by an abusive partner would probably be more likely to succeed, but not everyone had an abusive boyfriend back then, and might have to resort to throwing themselves downstairs, or something.

If abortion were re-criminalised, women in need of help might be likely to find a private hospital that would, for a price, perform an illegal operation. And they would certainly exist, since all sorts of illegal services exist. There also may be people who would perform the operations within their own homes, but it would probably be more likely to be in hospitals these days.

For the dirt-poor, the old trick of inducing a miscarriage would still be used - especially since there are people who actually do this even when abortion is legal. Young girls would probably be most likely to do this, since teenagers are not noted for their disposeable incomes. Realising this makes me wonder - the anti-abortion crowd would actually prefer a sixteen year old girl (say) to risk breaking her neck flinging herself over bannisters than to have a (relatively) safe legal abortion. Although I think most of them actually believe that if abortion was made illegal, this would in some way lessen the teenage girls' chances of doing this, as if they would say "Well, while abortion was illegal, I would have flung myself over the bannisters any time - but now it's illegal, I've had a change of heart!" (and probably a "praise Jesus!" in there too).

It makes me wonder whose lives these people are pro. I mean, they will fight tooth, nail, and somewhat deceitful banner to make sure a little child is born, but once the hospital-issue blanket is wrapped round the head of the baby, it's all "Get a job and stop scrounging off the state, you good-for-nothing! Do you know how much money you're costing us? Do you? Yeah, you think you're so smart, just you try getting ill in that shit of a place you live - you'll soon see what you're made of!" It's all "children-are-the-meek-and-mild-protect-the-meek-and-mild" out of their mouth while denying basic care for poor mothers with their hands.

Edited to mention two things:

1)I'm sure I heard of a conservative politician in this country who spoke out against abortion in public and yet in private insisted his pregnant mistress get an abortion.

2)On the subject of abusive childhoods, I remember reading an account on another site from a chap who was horribly abused by his parents, and he claimed that he would rather have been aborted than have had to go through his miserable childhood - if he had been able to choose at the time, of course.

Sometimes, I think my mother would have wound up much happier if she'd had three abortions rather than three children. She once told me that if she'd had her time again, she wouldn't have had children. But, at the time, she wanted children, I suppose.

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Captain Pedantic ]</p>

Abacus

I think it was George Carlin who said, "If you're pre-born you're fine, if you're pre-school, you're fucked."

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Abacus ]</p>

Ab_Normal

What a crappy thing for a parent to say to their child. Hugs are available on request.

Philosoft

A few years ago in the States, there was a congressman, a vocal opponent of abortion, whose unmarried young-adult daughter became pregnant. In the inevitable media buzz, when asked if he would approve of an abortion, he said something like the decision would be made privately within the family.

Hmm. It feels like I'm misremembering. I'll try to look it up.

Kuu

When my violent husband walked out on me I thought I was pregnant. I had no job, no money. I had three children, the eldest was five years old, the youngest two had handicaps. I have difficult pregnancy and births. I almost died during the 3rd birth.

Had I been pregnant I would have had an abortion. The welfare of my live children would have come before the life of a fetus. If I had died who would have looked after my children? If I had had the child how would I have coped with an extra mouth to feed, a extra child to find time for when my other children needed more care then most?

I am amazed that some pro-lifers say that I should have put the baby up for adoption? What if the child had been born handicapped as well? People don't often want to adopt handicapped children.

Pro-lifers don't seem to understand it was not the child I feared the most - it was the pregnancy and birth. They also say I should have been willing to sacrifice my life for an unborn - something none of them have done as they are all very much alive.

I don't remember any pro-lifers offering to help me with my children. They were probably all to busy in church praying or standing in front of abortion clinics. They don't care about children once they have been born.

The ones that get to me most are the ones that say I choose to have sex and therefore I should acept pregnancy. These people cannot understand that some women aren't really that willing to have sex at all. I could not say no to my husband (now ex-husband), if I had I might have got a beating.

The thing is these people would have preferred it if I had stayed in a violent marriage having baby after baby. Didn't matter if those children were scarred by what went on in the marriage.

Afterwards I had a wonderful relationship with a wonderful man. The sex was great, not like the sex in my marriage. Though I never married this guy I think my relationship with him was far more pure and good and honest than my marriage.

Vesica

EVEN WORSE, what if the Pro-lifers continue to rant at the top of thier lungs and we stay silent??

Just a thought.....One of the women's groups at my college set up a table in the student union and encouraged students to make 'Thank You' cards for two of our local health centers that provided abortions. I liked the emphasis on letting supportive voices be heard to. I encourage all that feel strongly about this issue to take a few moments and call or write to providers in your area and thank them for putting up with all the crap they do so we can all excersise our right to chose. How awful if the only feedback they got was from the Pro-lifers!