Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JonathanChance · 06-24-2003, 04:56 PM

ACLU is the American Version of the Taliban

Yeah, and the type of government this guy wants to implement wouldn't be? :banghead:

Man reading this letter makes me want to send him that bit about how little of our laws relate in any way at all to the Ten Commndments.

Oy vey. It's people like him that make me look more and more forward to getting the hell out of this area in January.

Toto · 06-24-2003, 05:21 PM

This has become a common comparison by the right wing loonies since a lawyer dreamed it up in one of the 10c cases.

ACLU Responds to Brief Comparing It to Taliban

Quote:

Quite a few jaws dropped when attorney Alfred W. Putnam of Philadelphia-based Drinker Biddle & Reath filed an amicus brief with the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that compared the American Civil Liberties Union and some of its clients to the Taliban.

Now the ACLU has filed a response brief that is clearly designed to ensure that Putnam's argument not only fails, but also backfires.

. . .
Putnam, in an amicus brief filed in October on behalf of the Chester County Historic Preservation Network, compared the forced removal of the plaque to the Taliban's decision to destroy ancient Buddha statues.

. . .
"It is possible to preserve and respect the works of one's ancestors without 'endorsing' them. We do it every day. It is true that the Taliban does not understand this. But we are not the Taliban. And our Constitution does not require that we behave as if we were," Putnam wrote.

Now a team of lawyers for the Freethought Society has filed a 62-page brief that targets Putnam's brief in the opening paragraphs of its argument.

Attorney Stefan Presser of the ACLU, along with appeals specialist Peter Goldberger of Ardmore and University of Pennsylvania law professor Seth Kreimer, argue that Putnam's entire premise is flawed since the Freethought Society's lawsuit doesn't seek "destruction" of the plaque. Instead, they argue, the suit asked only for a ruling that the county's display of a sectarian text on the walls of the county courthouse was unconstitutional.

The Constitution, they argue, is "the document which comes as close as any to being sacred in our nation's history."

Putnam's argument -- and his comparison of the ACLU and its clients to the Taliban -- was "tragic," they argue, "especially at a time when our nation has only recently been subjected to the scourge of religious fanaticism."

In contrast to the Taliban's "despicable, extra-judicial destruction of religious statues deemed world heritage artifacts," they said, the Freethought Society and its members, Sally Flynn and Margaret Downey, engaged in "peaceful utilization of our national courts."

It was "equally sad," they said, that Putnam compared Dalzell "to those who donned Mao's Red Guard robes, when in fact he acted in the noblest tradition of our nation's federal judges, who are commanded to protect the rights of those who do not ascribe to religious views held by a majority of Americans."

In addition to refuting Putnam's argument, Presser, Goldberger and Kreimer set out to harness the Taliban comparison to their own advantage.

"Indeed, it is the mandate of the Constitution's framers that government may not establish religion, thereby ensuring religious liberty, which has largely spared our nation from the scourge of Taliban-like fanaticism," they wrote.

The right wing just loves the argument.

Joseph Farah in WorldNutDaily

Stephen Maturin · 06-24-2003, 06:04 PM

Substantial chunks of that letter to the editor look to be pirated verbatim from the WorldNutDaily article Toto posted. That makes Mr. Pape as dishonest as he is stupid.

JonathanChance · 06-24-2003, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Maturin
Substantial chunks of that letter to the editor look to be pirated verbatim from the WorldNutDaily article Toto posted. That makes Mr. Pape as dishonest as he is stupid.

So maybe I should give my local newspaper a little call?

From what I heard from a friend who interned at this paper in High School there are two things the editors absolutley dislike when it comes to letters written to them: Pre-writen letters composed by organizations where the sender just signs their name on the bottom, and people who plagerize articles. IIRC, when I first posted on the letters written by this guy, a fellow infidel from down south said that he had seen the same letter pretty well much word-for-word in [his] local paper.

Maybe if I inform the Eagle-Herald of this blatant plagairism, they will take the appropriate action and this fundie will not be spewing his ignorant rhetoric in my paper.

dirkduck · 06-25-2003, 01:08 AM

"The ACLU's vision for America has already come to pass as we are a nation where thousands of babies (who could survive outside the womb) are brutally killed through partial-birth abortions"

I don't know the statistics, but I remember reading somewhere (I think it was Howard Dean's site) that since he's been govenor of Vermont they havn't had any partial birth abortions in the last 3 or 4 years. Now unless every other state but Vermont performs a whole bunch of abortions...

Jewel · 06-25-2003, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dirkduck
"The ACLU's vision for America has already come to pass as we are a nation where thousands of babies (who could survive outside the womb) are brutally killed through partial-birth abortions"

I don't know the statistics, but I remember reading somewhere (I think it was Howard Dean's site) that since he's been govenor of Vermont they havn't had any partial birth abortions in the last 3 or 4 years. Now unless every other state but Vermont performs a whole bunch of abortions...

There are 2 recent threads in this forum that discuss this:

A Full term fetus knows its mother's voice
Abortion made Illegal?

Stephen Maturin · 06-25-2003, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JonathanChance
So maybe I should give my local newspaper a little call?

That sounds like a good idea, Jonathan. Better yet, you might want to consider sending the person in charge of letters to the editor an email with a link to the Farah article in WorldNutDaily and a point-by-point exposition of Pape's plagiarism.

Espousing crackpot ideas such as ACLU = Taliban is one thing. It's annoying as hell, but ultimately I have no problem with it. The remedy for false and stupid speech is true and non-stupid speech. However, taking someone else's crackpot ideas and pawning them off as one's own is a whole 'nother bundle of laundry, and an exceptionally malodorous bundle at that.

Shake · 06-26-2003, 11:36 AM

Well, whether that jerkweed wrote it or someone else, it's still crap!

Quote:

The America's version of the Taliban is the American Civil Liberties Union.

Obviously from someone who doesn't understand what the ACLU is all about (at least ideally).

Quote:

We have our own powerful Taliban forces systematically seeking out and destroying any religious symbol in the public square ...
(emphasis mine)

Right! In public! You can privately display religious symbols on your own property, so long as you're not disturbing the peace. But public (especially gov't.) property is for all, and thus shouldn't overstep people's rights.

Quote:

Seeking out removing and destroying America Christian symbols has become an annual ritual with the ACLU, but it is a year long preoccupation with these zealots.

I assume he means "American," but I'll let that one go. Destroying the symbols? I think not. Removing, yes. Destruction is left for groups like the Taliban or the KKK.

Quote:

These American Taliban, ACLU and their Taliban judges would have us all believe that we are a nation that comes from monkeys.

What does this have to do with the rest of the article? Can you say, "Non-sequitur," kiddies? Good. I knew you could do it.

Quote:

The ACLU is a hate group. It hates Christians. It always has been, ...

What a load of crap! I'm sure there are plenty of Christians who are members of the ACLU. I'd be willing to bet that more than half of the ACLU members are Christians. The following is taken from the ACLU's about us page:

Quote:

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is our nation's guardian of liberty, working daily in courts, legislatures and communities to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties guaranteed to all people in this country by the Constitution and laws of the United States.

(emphasis mine) See? ALL people, even (gasp) Christians! I read the whole rest of that page and found nothing about them working against any group, religious or otherwise!

Quote:

We are a nation racing toward ruin. Our country is morally crippled. Any thinking citizens can see we're sinking into mire of degradation beyond all comprehension. We elect people to our highest offices knowing they're liars, adulterers, immoral and two-faced.

This thinking citizen sees a leader with dreams of theocracy blatently stealing my civil liberties in the name of patriotism and 'homeland defense.' Morally crippled? I don't know about that. I'd say we have too many hang-ups, most of which stem from religious upbringings and old-fashioned ideas.

If you ever meet this fundy, smack him upside the head for me! kidding! of course.

JonathanChance · 06-26-2003, 01:56 PM

I have three predictions:

I predict that due to the today's SCOTUS ruling in Lawrence v. Texas, that we will see another one of Mr. Pape's rants in my local paper very soon.

I also predict that other fundies like him will be flooding the Eagle-Herald with similar letters

I also predict that Cal Thomas, my favorite columnist will soon have something to say about this ruling, as well. When he does say something, you can be sure you will all get to see it.

JonathanChance · 06-26-2003, 02:41 PM

Well, I just phoned up our paper's editorial department. I got the voice mail, but I still made my point about wanting to report this blatant plaigerism.

06-24-2003, 04:56 PM	#1
JonathanChance Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Stevens Point, WI Posts: 538	Once again my favorite fundie writes another letter to the editor. ACLU is the American Version of the Taliban Yeah, and the type of government this guy wants to implement wouldn't be? :banghead: Man reading this letter makes me want to send him that bit about how little of our laws relate in any way at all to the Ten Commndments. Oy vey. It's people like him that make me look more and more forward to getting the hell out of this area in January.

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06-24-2003, 06:04 PM	#3
Stephen Maturin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Broomfield, Colorado, USA Posts: 1,295	Substantial chunks of that letter to the editor look to be pirated verbatim from the WorldNutDaily article Toto posted. That makes Mr. Pape as dishonest as he is stupid.

06-25-2003, 01:08 AM	#5
dirkduck Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,038	"The ACLU's vision for America has already come to pass as we are a nation where thousands of babies (who could survive outside the womb) are brutally killed through partial-birth abortions" I don't know the statistics, but I remember reading somewhere (I think it was Howard Dean's site) that since he's been govenor of Vermont they havn't had any partial birth abortions in the last 3 or 4 years. Now unless every other state but Vermont performs a whole bunch of abortions...

06-26-2003, 01:56 PM	#9
JonathanChance Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Stevens Point, WI Posts: 538	I have three predictions: I predict that due to the today's SCOTUS ruling in Lawrence v. Texas, that we will see another one of Mr. Pape's rants in my local paper very soon. I also predict that other fundies like him will be flooding the Eagle-Herald with similar letters I also predict that Cal Thomas, my favorite columnist will soon have something to say about this ruling, as well. When he does say something, you can be sure you will all get to see it.

06-26-2003, 02:41 PM	#10
JonathanChance Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Stevens Point, WI Posts: 538	Well, I just phoned up our paper's editorial department. I got the voice mail, but I still made my point about wanting to report this blatant plaigerism.

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