Freethought & Rationalism Archive

goat37 · 07-15-2003, 07:20 PM

or rather, have the genes to create teeth.

I know this has been discussed many times, but I can't find the links...

anyone care to post a link that points to this fact, or other parts of the forum that talk about it.

Talking to a fundie that doesn't believe me and I can't find a link.

thanks

Doubting Didymus · 07-15-2003, 07:43 PM

This is the best-known experiment. Birds don't have actual teeth, but their development is set up to recieve them. If the right signals are given, the bird embryo develops birdlike teeth. In this case, the signals come from mouse tissue, but the teeth (anticipating creationist objection), are not mouslike teeth, they resemble toothybird fossils.

contracycle · 07-16-2003, 01:04 AM

It amuses me that this implies that "rare as hens teeth" might be true. Its not impossible, that somwehere, some how, amongst all the domesticated critters, a bit got flipped and a chicken grew a tooth.

MortalWombat · 07-16-2003, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus
This is the best-known experiment. Birds don't have actual teeth, but their development is set up to recieve them. If the right signals are given, the bird embryo develops birdlike teeth. In this case, the signals come from mouse tissue, but the teeth (anticipating creationist objection), are not mouslike teeth, they resemble toothybird fossils.

This is the original paper which showed that transplanting of chicken embryonic jaw epithelium, along with mouse molar mesenchyme, into the anterior chamber of a mouse eye will induce the development of (non-mammalian) teeth.

This page gives a summary of the paper, along with a picture of one of the figures.

ps418 · 07-16-2003, 10:36 AM

FWIW, there was a similar paper in the PNAS a couple of months ago, which showed that avian oral epithelium induces tooth formation in transplanted mouse mesenchyme.

Quote:

Teeth were lost in birds 70�80 million years ago. Current thinking holds that it is the avian cranial neural crest-derived mesenchyme that has lost odontogenic capacity, whereas the oral epithelium retains the signaling properties required to induce odontogenesis. To investigate the odontogenic capacity of ectomesenchyme, we have used neural tube transplantations from mice to chick embryos to replace the chick neural crest cell populations with mouse neural crest cells. The mouse/chick chimeras obtained show evidence of tooth formation showing that avian oral epithelium is able to induce a nonavian developmental program in mouse neural crest-derived mesenchymal cells.

Mitsiadis et al, 2003. Development of teeth in chick embryos after mouse neural crest transplantations. PNAS 100, pp. 6541-6545.

Patrick

Boro Nut · 07-17-2003, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MortalWombat
This[/url] is the original paper which showed that transplanting of chicken embryonic jaw epithelium, along with mouse molar mesenchyme, into the anterior chamber of a mouse eye will induce the development of (non-mammalian) teeth.

Sorry, I don't get it. Pardon me for being stupid, but what is the benefit to the mouse's vision?

Boro Nut

MortalWombat · 07-17-2003, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boro Nut
Sorry, I don't get it. Pardon me for being stupid, but what is the benefit to the mouse's vision?

Not so much as a benefit to their vision, but a lesson in empathy. See, the mice have saying which is similar to a human proverb, which goes like "never judge a chicken until you've looked at him with his teeth in your eye."

This is also where the saying "I would have given my eye teeth to have seen that" comes from.

07-15-2003, 07:20 PM	#1
goat37 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Corpus Christi, TX Posts: 37	Birds have teeth? or rather, have the genes to create teeth. I know this has been discussed many times, but I can't find the links... anyone care to post a link that points to this fact, or other parts of the forum that talk about it. Talking to a fundie that doesn't believe me and I can't find a link. thanks

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07-15-2003, 07:43 PM	#2
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	This is the best-known experiment. Birds don't have actual teeth, but their development is set up to recieve them. If the right signals are given, the bird embryo develops birdlike teeth. In this case, the signals come from mouse tissue, but the teeth (anticipating creationist objection), are not mouslike teeth, they resemble toothybird fossils.

07-16-2003, 01:04 AM	#3
contracycle Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,425	It amuses me that this implies that "rare as hens teeth" might be true. Its not impossible, that somwehere, some how, amongst all the domesticated critters, a bit got flipped and a chicken grew a tooth.

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