Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Corwin · 06-26-2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arken
Yes, but one would think that animals with telepathic powers would be easy to observe using them as they would involve doing all sorts of things which could not be communicated by other means.

Like?

JGL53 · 06-26-2003, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
.... A somewhat opposite phenomenon always fascinated me: split-brain patients. When the corpus callosum is severed, the two lobes of the brain become completely isolated from each other (well, from a neuronal point of view), resulting in some rather interesting consequences, including the potential for the simultaneous existence of two independent consciousnesses....

(off the subject somewhat - sorry)

I find this fact of reality (split brain - two independent consciousnesses) MUCH more interesting than speculation about the possibility of "telepathy".

It seems to me that this fact should cause real theoretical problems for believers in a 'soul' or 'spirit' independent of the material brain. Has there ever been a thread about this? If not, i think it would make a good topic of debate for theists/atheists.

Arken · 06-26-2003, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corwin
Like?

Like an animal leading other animals to food without any observable communication method.

Corwin · 06-26-2003, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arken
Like an animal leading other animals to food without any observable communication method.

We don't know for sure that this doesn't happen in some species.

I'll give you credit for not making the widespread mistake of assuming that there 'can't be telepathic animals because they'd be so intelligent that we'd KNOW about it' tho.

Arken · 06-26-2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corwin
We don't know for sure that this doesn't happen in some species.

I'll give you credit for not making the widespread mistake of assuming that there 'can't be telepathic animals because they'd be so intelligent that we'd KNOW about it' tho.

I never said we knew for sure. I said that I believe something like that would be fairly easy to observe. I personally doubt it but I have no hard evidence.

Jesse · 06-26-2003, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JGL53
(off the subject somewhat - sorry)

I find this fact of reality (split brain - two independent consciousnesses) MUCH more interesting than speculation about the possibility of "telepathy".

It seems to me that this fact should cause real theoretical problems for believers in a 'soul' or 'spirit' independent of the material brain. Has there ever been a thread about this? If not, i think it would make a good topic of debate for theists/atheists.

The two halves of a "split brain" are not actually 100% split--there are other connections between them besides the corpus callosum--so it's not totally clear that they have independent consciousnesses, although it seems like they are largely independent (but then again, how can I be sure that my conscious experience right now isn't just that of one half the brain, which is just receiving information from the other half?) This page gives some details:

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~jbogen/text/ref130.htm

Quote:

18. What accounts for the normally unified everyday behavior of the patients (Sperry, 1968)? First, there are bihemispherically appreciated visual and manual explorations of space, including conjugate eye movements. For example, Hughes et al. (1992), cited in (Tramo et al., 1995), provided evidence for bidirectional gaze control in each hemisphere of patient JW Second, there is some bilateral representation of sensory information. Third, there is ongoing hormonal communication via blood and cerebrospinal fluid. Fourth, and most important, there are a variety of connecting subcallosal pathways in the cerebellum, midbrain, pens and both hypo- and subthalamus.

I agree, though, that the split brain issue is potentially troubling to believers in a soul, and would be even more troubling if all connections between the two halves were split--I don't think there'd ever be a medical justification for a complete split, but I wonder if this has ever been done with animals in experiments. I've also read it's possible to surpress or enhance neural activity in certain general areas of the brain using magnetic fields, perhaps in the future this technology will become precise enough that it would be possible to suppress all transfer of information between the two halves of a person's brain without doing any permanent damage.

Corwin · 06-26-2003, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arken
I never said we knew for sure. I said that I believe something like that would be fairly easy to observe. I personally doubt it but I have no hard evidence.

I'm not even so sure it would be all that easy to observe. A number of species (housecats for example) can be extremely subtle about communicating with each other.

I doubt they're telepathic.... but it might be tough to tell the difference at times.

Mageth · 06-26-2003, 02:09 PM

When I observe huge schools of fishes or large flocks of birds all turning and weaving in unison, sometimes I wonder...

(note: I don't think there's any telepathy going on there; the thought/impulse transmitter/receiver issue is a really big hurdle to leap).

Has anyone ever heard a good explanation for this behavior? Is it, as I suspect, a case of extraordinary coordination and fast, instinctual reaction time?

Arken · 06-26-2003, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
When I observe huge schools of fishes or large flocks of birds all turning and weaving in unison, sometimes I wonder... (note: I don't think there's any telepathy going on there; the thought/impulse transmitter/receiver issue is a really big hurdle to leap).

Has anyone ever heard a good explanation for this behavior? Is it, as I suspect, a case of extraordinary coordination and fast, instinctual reaction time?

This is a complete guess, but I'd say they're just watching the fish at the front and mimicking it.

Corwin · 06-26-2003, 02:26 PM

Actually I think as near as anyone can tell it's mostly a combination of both your answers, plus some learned behavior.

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06-26-2003, 02:09 PM	#18
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	When I observe huge schools of fishes or large flocks of birds all turning and weaving in unison, sometimes I wonder... (note: I don't think there's any telepathy going on there; the thought/impulse transmitter/receiver issue is a really big hurdle to leap). Has anyone ever heard a good explanation for this behavior? Is it, as I suspect, a case of extraordinary coordination and fast, instinctual reaction time?

06-26-2003, 02:26 PM	#20
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Actually I think as near as anyone can tell it's mostly a combination of both your answers, plus some learned behavior.

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