Jamie_L

Most folks are saying varaitions of what I would say, so I won't add much to this except:

Wisdom, in the traditional sense, is a function of the brain, and IS indirectly subject to physical laws. This can be clearly seen both in cases of brain damage and in chemical alteration of the brain through drugs (both clinical and recreational).

Jamie

7thangel

I'll be reading your responses. I will reply soon. Sorry for being slow.

7thangel

Jayjay said: The only free will there is originates from the fact that we're too complex and messy to be predictable, hence a perception of freedom.

Well, as I said, if our human complexity is due to randomness, it is not surely free will. You are, in a way, saying, that insane people have the true free will.

Jayjay said: Anyway, it seems that you seem to think that not having a supernatural source of "free will" is somehow untrustworthy?

Not exactly the word untrustworthy, rather, we are simply puppets going with the dictate of the laws of physics, same way the computer going with the dictates of its inventors. It makes us of no real value, and that our worth is dependent with the forces that control us. The implication of this is that whoever have the power to change all things is not subject to any thing, thus he/she is free to do whatever he/she wills. This is, in a way, contradicting compatibilism.

Dr. Retard said: I assume "the same as computer" means material and more-or-less deterministic. I want to know what materialism and determinism have to do with free will, the intellect, and morals. You must see secret connections between seemingly different topics.

As I said above, materialism and determinism makes us of no value because our “identity of being” is dictated by the laws of physics; as the computer is dictated by its inventors. Since we have no “identity of being” apart from that of dictated by the laws of physics, therefore we do not posses our own will. Same reasoning with intellect. Now, intellect and free will has to do with morality, ie. we judge minors differently from adults.

Morality is about setting standards between two or more beings. But if one Being is the only source of all power, then there is no such thing as standards, or morals. Thus I said that whoever has the power over all things, can do whatever he/she wills.

Jamie_L said: Wisdom, in the traditional sense, is a function of the brain, and IS indirectly subject to physical laws. This can be clearly seen both in cases of brain damage and in chemical alteration of the brain through drugs (both clinical and recreational).

The brain is physical. It is therefore directly subject to the physical laws. What do you mean by “indirectly?”

God Bless

Oxymoron

Remember to keep the distinction between hardware (brains) and software (minds). Software does not obey physical laws; it has a modus operandi of its own - eg which is heavier: Windows XP or Linux? Which has more entropy: Adobe Photoshop or Metal Gear Solid 2? These questions are meaningless. Software can represent just about anything, and apply arbitrary rules on and between the things it represents.

VonEvilstein

7thAngel,

Why do you need to resort to the supernatural, to explain the human mind?

It's a vastly complex emergent system that we're only just beginning to understand.

I'd rather admit my ignorance than make something up to hide it.

This Summer, take a trip to Ant Country...

Dr. Retard

As near as I can tell, this is just question-begging. Just because something's "identity of being" (what is this exactly?) is dictated by the laws of physics doesn't cancel its free will, its intellect, or its moral responsibility. At least I don't see why it would. You'll have to show this connection, not just claim it.

"But if one Being is the only source of all power, then there is no such thing as standards, or morals"? I don't understand why. You'll have to explain your reasoning.

Shadowy Man

I think what he is trying to get it is this:

If the brain and its activities are just particles following the laws of nature then any "intellect" or "free will" that we have is merely illusory.

And he seems to have a problem accepting this. Therefore God exists.

Jayjay

Excellent observation, Shadowy Man!

No, I am saying that free will in the form you define it doesn't exist at all. We only have an illusion of free will. And not only does free will not exist, it is an utterly self-contradictory concept... I cannot conceive of any process or activity that would not be a combination of random and determined constituents, regardless of whether I think human minds reside in our brains or if they are floating in some supernatural spirit land.

I don't think you see where this line of thinking leads... So for sake of the argument, let's say that "free will" is a supernatural phenomenon and we have spirits of sorts telling our brains what to do. You already said that you don't think randomness is free will, so it stands to reason that the mental processes of these spirits follow some rules... therefore, they are deterministic. But way, determinism is not free will! So by your reasoning, there must be a super-supernatural domain where super-spirits control our spirits in the same fashion as our spirits controls out brains. Consequently, there is a super-super-supernatural world of super-super-spirits, and a super-super-super-supernatural world... ad infinitum. If you insist upon attributing intrisic moral values or responsibilities outside the domain where moral actions take place, you end up with infinite regress!

Don't forget that it's your opinion that without a mystical, supernatural element we can't have morals. If that road takes you to somewhere you don't want to go, namely moral relativism, perhaps it's time to reconsider the basis of your ethical system?

I do not see how that is implied. No one has "the power to change all things". If you mean that naturalism means that we are free to do whatever we can do, then you are confusing the physical reality with moral principles... just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.

7thangel

Actually, there was a trick on the question. So base on your understanding of what intellect is all about, do you really have intellectual integrity?

Jayjay:

I will study your last post, and then make a post about it. I guess some of the question is not related to the initial post. Thanks.

God Bless

Shadowy Man

Yes.