Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 11-16-2006, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Frederick Amadeus Malleson, The Acts and Epistles of Saint Paul, 1881, page 587:

In Pompeii, destroyed A.D. 79, was found, twenty years ago, an inscription in charcoal, "Igne gaude Christiane" ("Rejoice, Christian, in the fire").

The same information is to be found in George Stokes, Latin Christian Inscriptions, Contemporary Review, 1881, page 97, with the added note that this is indeed CIL IV 679.

Discovered in the 19th century? 1860s? I'd sure like to know who found that inscription and when, and under what circumstances. How was it authenticated? Who did the authenticating?

Just for fun, I found this on a claim that a famous greek statue is a michaelangelo fake. Veteran fraud watchers will spot the tell-tales immediately. Steve, you'll love it.

Michael

Toto · 11-17-2006, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

...

In Pompeii, destroyed A.D. 79, was found, twenty years ago, an inscription in charcoal, "Igne gaude Christiane" ("Rejoice, Christian, in the fire").

The same information is to be found in George Stokes, Latin Christian Inscriptions, Contemporary Review, 1881, page 97, with the added note that this is indeed CIL IV 679.

Johannes Overbeck, Pompeji in seinen Gebäuden, Alterthümern und Kunstwerken Aufl, 1866, page 115:

...NI GAVDI ...HRISTIANI, igni gaude Christiane....

This diplomatic version is one letter better than the one you found. I wonder what led to the difference. Was the H unclear? I also wonder what led to the reconstruction of ...ni as igni. But if indeed the key word was ...hristiane, is there any other Latin word it could be?

Now, that is all to do with the inscription that I had in mind, but I also found another inscription which is quite new to me. I have no idea what to make of it. The discussion on that page almost looks like a practical joke.

Ben.

I have not seen any photos of this, so this might be completely wrong - but

I think that your last URL is the inscription in question. The picture notes that it is a hybridization of of an 1862 cleaning and an "optical enhancement" of carbon particles on the wall.

I found online the ENCYCLOPEDIA BIBLICA of 1899 which appears to be poorly scanned, but I think I can make this out:

Quote:

The time at which the name [Christians] arose could not with assurance be placed earlier than 79 A.D., even if a certain inscription (which disappeared soon after its discovery) at Pompeii, on the wall of a building (at first supposed to have been a Christian meeting-house), had actually contained the letters HRISTIANI .

This reading might very well have been a derivative from the tolerably frequent proper name Chrestus (see above, 8 I) ; but, in point of fact the reading is only a conjecture and according to Kiessling's original transcription (which is still extant), the word really was ceristire-whatever that may mean.

The architecture of the house shows it to have been an 'inn' (caupona), provided even with a cella meretricia, where, accordingly, it is hardly likely that Christian meetings would have been held ; in fact, the inscription, which begins with the words, 'Vina Nervii,' was probably an advertisement of wines.

I think I can see how someone could read VINA on the first line, or GNI GAUDI before Christiano.

Malachi151 · 11-17-2006, 05:02 AM

I'd like to know why apologists keep presenting evidence for Christianity as evidence for a human Jesus? No one questions the existence of Christianity,

Ben C Smith · 11-17-2006, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Fascinating stuff, guys.

This makes the non-references to Christians in all three works of Josephus even harder to explain.

All four works, right?

Ben.

S.C.Carlson · 11-17-2006, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Discovered in the 19th century? 1860s? I'd sure like to know who found that inscription and when, and under what circumstances. How was it authenticated? Who did the authenticating?

1862. This was very early in the days of archaeology, when many of its practitioners (incl. Heinrich Schliemann) thought nothing of juicing up their discoveries to make them more exciting and hopefully to raise more money.

Stephen

Ben C Smith · 11-17-2006, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I think that your last URL is the inscription in question. The picture notes that it is a hybridization of of an 1862 cleaning and an "optical enhancement" of carbon particles on the wall.

You may be right. If so, is it not odd that the enhancements render the word Christian(s) even more secure than the original reading, but the rest of the words far less secure?

What gives me pause about that particular link is the following:

"DI" can be either "God" or "the answer to the meaning of life in the Cosmos"....

What is that all about?

Quote:

I think I can see how someone could read VINA on the first line, or GNI GAUDI before Christiano.

I can see the gaude, but am not seeing the -gni.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vork

Discovered in the 19th century? 1860s? I'd sure like to know who found that inscription and when, and under what circumstances. How was it authenticated? Who did the authenticating?

Sounds like it was Kiessling originally, and scientific tests on the faded surface more recently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

I recently signed out the Berry book. He cites recent photographic analysis which confirms the initial "C" to make "Christiani".

Does Berry write of Adolf or of Alfred? I will try to get hold of that book.

At any rate, I do not feel much like using this particular datum until I know more about it.

Ben.

Vorkosigan · 11-17-2006, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

All four works, right?

Ben.

LOL. Forgot the bio.

Vorkosigan · 11-17-2006, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

1862. This was very early in the days of archaeology, when many of its practitioners (incl. Heinrich Schliemann) thought nothing of juicing up their discoveries to make them more exciting and hopefully to raise more money.

Stephen

Yes, that's sorta what I was getting at.

Michael

No Robots · 11-17-2006, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Sounds like it was Kiessling originally, and scientific tests on the faded surface more recently.

Yup, plus there was another guy who did a facsimile around the same time as Kiessling.

Quote:

Does Berry write of Adolf or of Alfred?

Can't remember. Sorry.

No Robots · 11-17-2006, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

I recently signed out the Berry book. He cites recent photographic analysis which confirms the initial "C" to make "Christiani".

Er, that should be "Christianos".

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11-17-2006, 05:02 AM	#113
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I'd like to know why apologists keep presenting evidence for Christianity as evidence for a human Jesus? No one questions the existence of Christianity,

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