Johann_Kaspar

4BC 13 Mar 00:40 UTC without any doubt. Herod is already seriously ill (he had to be carried to Jericho in a bed), his health is deteriorating quickly and his death is happening within a very short period. The only actions taken place before his death are his trip to Callirhoe and the killing of Antipater, Herod dying 5 days later.

As I can read the case of the 2 Matthias, both actions (dismissing one and killing the other) happened the same day. Herod dismissed the high priest because he was thinking that he took some part in (or did not condemn?!) the "crime" of the other Matthias. On the other side, the one-day replacement of the high priest happened sometime "during his priesthood" and has no link with the period under discussion. To identify the fast day has no importance for dating Herod's death.

Sven

:notworthy: to judge - he actually tries to profit from these discussion. This unfortunately can not be said about all posters here.

judge

Ok, one last post.
Firstly thanks for those links Prax, I had wondered if they were on the web.

This idea seems on the surface to be fairly soundly refuted here...

Astronomy and the Death of King Herod

There have been a lot of references to this book The Star That Astonished the World (or via: amazon.co.uk), but it does seem to be very popular with apologists (google can verify this),
and even scholars .
Which is why it may be worthwhile for there to be some response from the other side of the street to it's contents, lest the arguments for and against the alleged error in Luke become irrelevant to each other.

Steven Avery

Welcome.

There really are a couple of elements to the view developed by the late Ernest Martin. He could be strong on some aspects (e.g. the death of Herod, the Star of Bethlehem, eclipse, Megillath Ta’anith) and weaker on others .. such as developing an interpretation that requires an earlier Quirinius registration or oath.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Johann_Kaspar

Refuted... you must be kidding, aren't you? Well, on the surface, only on the surface, better not to dig, then.

(Hi)story fiction would be the correct words.

Here we have two examples:
Herod was already very ill before the eclipse. Even it was even believed by some people that he was dead. The quote starts: "One has to allow"... what kind of evidence is it? A deterioration can happen within a very short period of time, and he did not wait for the "deterioration" to happen to be treated.

Would be more useful to think about what disease he suffered. Guess work for guess work.

As the "treament" in Callirhoe proved quite bad (bath of warm oil), this could have taken 2-3 days at most... and so on. 29 days are more than enough to explain all what Josephus wrote.

JoeWallack

JW:
Regarding Richard Carrier's (someone who speaks with authority) Legendary article:

The Date of the Nativity in Luke

the biggest complaint I've seen in this Thread was the possibility that a Textual variation in Josephus supported Herod the Great dying two years later than Carrier accepts in his article. The main complainers seem to have accepted that the argument for the textual variation is primarily based on a significantly Incomplete study by David Beyer. I'm still waiting for Vardaman's book from Amazon that either has reproduced Beyer's article or at least refers to it. Apparently there is little demand now for this book and I Am guessing that Carrier is partially responsible.

The next biggest complaint here seems to be that the eclipse Carrier connects to the death of Herod the Great is the wrong one. Here is what Carrier says about eclipses and the death of Herod the Great:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ius.html#alive

"Finally, we cannot trust the reported coincidence of a lunar eclipse near to Herod's death (Jewish Antiquities 17.167). Only a partial eclipse is astronomically confirmed for March 13, 4 B.C., which makes this an unlikely candidate, and it is unclear how much time followed the event and his actual death anyway. But that kind of claim was commonly made for great events (in this case a notorious murder) and thus is often not genuine, as I explain in my essay on Thallus. Even if accepted, the only total eclipse in this period fell on 23 March 5 B.C., which would allow his death to fall in 4 B.C., and, in fact, all the events supposed to happen in the interim more easily fit this than the partial eclipse of 4 B.C. Of course, Finegan latches onto a total eclipse in 1 B.C. for his theory, but even to use this he is forced to go against evidence in Jewish literature for the actual day of Herod's death (§ 506) which preceded that eclipse."

Jewish Antiquities 17.167

"But Herod deprived this Matthias of the high priesthood, and burnt the other Matthias, who had raised the sedition, with his companions, alive. And that very night there was an eclipse of the moon. 3

[168] But now Herod's distemper greatly increased upon him after a severe manner, and this by God's judgment upon him for his sins; for a fire glowed in him slowly, which did not so much appear to the touch outwardly, as it augmented his pains inwardly; for it brought upon him a vehement appetite to eating, which he could not avoid to supply with one sort of food or other. His entrails were also ex-ulcerated, and the chief violence of his pain lay on his colon; an aqueous and transparent liquor also had settled itself about his feet, and a like matter afflicted him at the bottom of his belly. Nay, further, his privy-member was putrefied, and produced worms; and when he sat upright, he had a difficulty of breathing, which was very loathsome, on account of the stench of his breath, and the quickness of its returns; he had also convulsions in all parts of his body, which increased his strength to an insufferable degree. It was said by those who pretended to divine, and who were endued with wisdom to foretell such things, that God inflicted this punishment on the king on account of his great impiety; yet was he still in hopes of recovering, though his afflictions seemed greater than any one could bear. He also sent for physicians, and did not refuse to follow what they prescribed for his assistance, and went beyond the river Jordan, and bathed himself in the warm baths that were at Callirrhoe, which, besides their other general virtues, were also fit to drink; which water runs into the lake called Asphaltiris. And when the physicians once thought fit to have him bathed in a vessel full of oil, it was supposed that he was just dying; but upon the lamentable cries of his domestics, he revived; and having no longer the least hopes of recovering, he gave order that every soldier should be paid fifty drachmae; and he also gave a great deal to their commanders, and to his friends, and came again to Jericho, where he grew so choleric, that it brought him to do all things like a madman; and though he were near his death, he contrived the following wicked designs. He commanded that all the principal men of the entire Jewish nation, wheresoever they lived, should be called to him. Accordingly, they were a great number that came, because the whole nation was called, and all men heard of this call, and death was the penalty of such as should despise the epistles that were sent to call them. And now the king was in a wild rage against them all, the innocent as well as those that had afforded ground for accusations; and when they were come, he ordered them to be all shut up in the hyppodrome, 4 and sent for his sister Salome, and her husband Alexas, and spake thus to them: "I shall die in a little time, so great are my pains; which death ought to be cheerfully borne, and to be welcomed by all men; but what principally troubles me is this, that I shall die without being lamented, and without such mourning as men usually expect at a king's death. For that he was not unacquainted with the temper of the Jews, that his death would be a thing very desirable, and exceedingly acceptable to them, because during his lifetime they were ready to revolt from him, and to abuse the donations he had dedicated to God that it therefore was their business to resolve to afford him some alleviation of his great sorrows on this occasion; for that if they do not refuse him their consent in what he desires, he shall have a great mourning at his funeral, and such as never had any king before him; for then the whole nation would mourn from their very soul, which otherwise would be done in sport and mockery only. He desired therefore, that as soon as they see he hath given up the ghost, they shall place soldiers round the hippodrome, while they do not know that he is dead; and that they shall not declare his death to the multitude till this is done, but that they shall give orders to have those that are in custody shot with their darts; and that this slaughter of them all will cause that he shall not miss to rejoice on a double account; that as he is dying, they will make him secure that his will shall be executed in what he charges them to do; and that he shall have the honor of a memorable mourning at his funeral. So he deplored his condition, with tears in his eyes, and obtested them by the kindness due from them, as of his kindred, and by the faith they owed to God, and begged of them that they would not hinder him of this honorable mourning at his funeral. So they promised him not to transgress his commands.

[180] Now any one may easily discover the temper of this man's mind, which not only took pleasure in doing what he had done formerly against his relations, out of the love of life, but by those commands of his which savored of no humanity; since he took care, when he was departing out of this life, that the whole nation should be put into mourning, and indeed made desolate of their dearest kindred, when he gave order that one out of every family should be slain, although they had done nothing that was unjust, or that was against him, nor were they accused of any other crimes; while it is usual for those who have any regard to virtue to lay aside their hatred at such a time, even with respect to those they justly esteemed their enemies.

[182] AS he was giving these commands to his relations, there came letters from his ambassadors, who had been sent to Rome unto Caesar, which, when they were read, their purport was this: That Acme was slain by Caesar, out of his indignation at what hand, she had in Antipater's wicked practices; and that as to Antipater himself, Caesar left it to Herod to act as became a father and a king, and either to banish him, or to take away his life, which he pleased. When Herod heard this, he was some-what better, out of the pleasure he had from the contents of the letters, and was elevated at the death of Acme, and at the power that was given him over his son; but as his pains were become very great, he was now ready to faint for want of somewhat to eat; so he called for an apple and a knife; for it was his custom formerly to pare the apple himself, and soon afterwards to cut it, and eat it. When he had got the knife, he looked about, and had a mind to stab himself with it; and he had done it, had not his first cousin, Achiabus, prevented him, and held his hand, and cried out loudly. Whereupon a woeful lamentation echoed through the palace, and a great tumult was made, as if the king were dead. Upon which Antipater, who verily believed his father was deceased, grew bold in his discourse, as hoping to be immediately and entirely released from his bonds, and to take the kingdom into his hands without any more ado; so he discoursed with the jailer about letting him go, and in that case promised him great things, both now and hereafter, as if that were the only thing now in question. But the jailer did not only refuse to do what Antipater would have him, but informed the king of his intentions, and how many solicitations he had had from him [of that nature]. Hereupon Herod, who had formerly no affection nor good-will towards his son to restrain him, when he heard what the jailer said, he cried out, and beat his head, although he was at death's door, and raised himself upon his elbow, and sent for some of his guards, and commanded them to kill Antipater without tiny further delay, and to do it presently, and to bury him in an ignoble manner at Hyrcania.

[188] AND now Herod altered his testament upon the alteration of his mind; for he appointed Antipas, to whom he had before left the kingdom, to be tetrarch of Galilee and Perea, and granted the kingdom to Archclaus. He also gave Gaulonitis, and Trachonitis, and Paneas to Philip, who was his son, but own brother to Archclaus 1 by the name of a tetrarchy; and bequeathed Jarnnia, and Ashdod, and Phasaelis to Salome his sister, with five hundred thousand [drachmae] of silver that was coined. He also made provision for all the rest of his kindred, by giving them sums of money and annual revenues, and so left them all in a wealthy condition. He bequeathed also to Caesar ten millions [of drachmae] of coined money, besides both vessels of gold and silver, and garments exceeding costly, to Julia, Caesar's wife; and to certain others, five millions. When he had done these things, he died, the fifth day after he had caused Antipater to be slain; having reigned, since he had procured Antigonus to be slain, thirty-four years; but since he had been declared king by the Romans, thirty-seven. 2 A man he was of great barbarity towards all men equally, and a slave to his passion; but above the consideration of what was right; yet was he favored by fortune as much as any man ever was, for from a private man he became a king; and though he were encompassed with ten thousand dangers, he got clear of them all, and continued his life till a very old age. But then, as to the affairs of his family and children, in which indeed, according to his own opinion, he was also very fortunate, because he was able to conquer his enemies, yet, in my opinion, he was herein very unfortunate."


JW:
Carrier indicates that he is Skeptical in General of ancient claims of eclipses happening on important dates including Josephus' claim of an eclipse above. Therefore he is not using any known date of an eclipse as direct evidence for dating Herod the Great's death to 4 BCE. Carrier does guess that a full eclipse of 5 BCE would allow more time for the described events to occur than the partial eclipse of 4 BCE.

The specific complaint against Carrier here seems to be that Josephus meant a full eclipse and should be accepted here and that the closest full eclipse before 4 BCE was in 5 BCE which would not allow enough time for the described events to occur.

Is this what you Complainers are saying here?



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Steven Avery

Joe, I skip most of your posts because of stuff like this and repetition. Anyway, from the point of view of the discussion so far I am not sure if Judge is still posting. And I have not discussed the eclipse events directly although I was involved in the Megillath Ta’anith discussion. And I thought you were going to try to explain the Carrier strangeness on that. Where is his dates and explanation and references ? Why does the evidence that is available work against his view ? As to the eclipse question I was asking for a summary explanation.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

judge

The problem I see is that the Carrier article wastes time arguing against ridiculous theories such as the microscopic writing on coins, and doesn't spend enough time or go into enough detail on what IMHO are more relevant and far more popular proposals (for example the book referenced in this thread).
So, his essay is in danger of being or becoming irrelevant IMHO.

added in edit:

I think he needs to explain his approach to the fasting scrolls as Praxeus has pointed out too.

Definitely my last post.

spin

If y'all want to whinge about carrion there's a nice thread for that.

Steven Avery

The major Megillath Ta’anith problem was uncovered on this thread and was directly related to the death of Herod chronology issues. And there was no substantive response when it was discovered, a thunderous silence. Other less related Richard Carrier 'Nativity' problems will generally be on the other thread.

Shalom,
Steven