Jeffrey Gibson

To be exact, it was twice.

But no matter how many times he did it, why is this ironic?

Jeffrey

Solitary Man

Enough to know that Acharya S. totally ignores the major works, controversial or not. Where's Bruce Lincoln, C. Scott Littleton, Georges Dumézil, Jaan Puhvel, John F. Szwed? I wasn't able to find those very important names on her "biography" of her book Suns of God. Heck, even I could have twisted Littleton's and Dumézil's ideas to fit Acharya S.'s theory.

MarmINFP

That is a fair attitude. I try to wait-and-see about most things. That is why I'm in a thread like this one. There are many things I don't know.

Iasion

Greetings all,

I have read Acharya S' "The Christ Conspiracy", I found it poor scholarship, thin on cites to primary sources, but more reliant on secondary sources and 19th century writers. I no longer have my copy.
I thought I'd weigh in here by evaluating some of Acharya's work - focussing on her accuracy in reproducing the primary sources, an important indicator of scholarship.

So,
a quick google lead me to her site, there are many articles online, including a set of 6 articles on "Origins of Christianity" - righto, I'll start there.

The first ancient writer cited is Julian - OK, let's check her claims, which are :


Acharya S on Julian

Checking The Diegesis, I find it even has a list of sources cited (in page order.) On page 259, Taylor does indeed quote Julian :

Acharya S has changed "ye" to "you", and has dropped a comma - trivial differences.

For comparison I also have Thomas Taylor's translation of Julian, based on Cyril, which uses this wording :

Some small differences stand out - the word "Christian" added, the words "partly of" added twice, the last clause omitted.

Robert Taylor gives his source : "Julian apud Cyrill, lib. 2.", and quotes the Greek, apparently, of Cyril. My Greek is poor, but I can see there is no word "Christian" in the Greek, and Thomas Taylor's translation does not have this word. I conclude the word "Christian" is added by R. Taylor. I cannot comment on whether "partly of" is present, or implied, in the Greek.

So, in conclusion, AcharyaS has :
* accurately quoted a very old tertiary source in translation (Diegesis) - which AFAIK seems to be a reasonable, but not perfectly literal translation
* failed to cite or check with the secondary source (Cyril)
* could not quote the primary source Julian - not extant.

Her score ? Maybe a "B" ?
She didn't drill down as far as possible to the source, instead relying on an early 19th C. writer,
but her quote does seem to be essentially correct as far as I can tell.

More quotes to follow ...

Iasion

Dave31

Are you serious? You really need to ask that question? You don't think it's ironic due to the fact that Christians went all out to destroy as much pagan evidence and influence as possible yet, quotes like Tertullian's and others survived and gives us clues into the milieu of the time. It's a big deal - a major clue of many clues. If nothing else for whatever reason, the fact that he went on to publically address it with "The Charge of Worshipping the Sun Met by a Retort"

In other words,

"In his fervor to DENY that Christians worship the sun TERTULLIAN HAS IRONICALLY PRESERVED THE SUN-WORSHIPPING CONTENTION AGAINST THEM"

AND he wasn't the only church father to address it.

Iasion

Greetings again,

OK, skipping over Churchward, Wheless, the next ancient author is...

Pope Leo X !

Acharya S on Pope Leo X

Well, as most here would know, Pope Leo X said no such thing, it's from "The Pageant of the Popes" by John Bale.

Her score?
FFF-

As scholarship, this is a total failure. Acharya S failed to check this "fact", something which would have taken merely a few minutes of research. Instead she un-critically repeated one of the best known urban legends in this field.


Iasion

Iasion

Greetings,

Next, skipping over another bevy of 19th C. writers, Acharya S quotes Justin Martyr several times and Minucius Felix.

The quotes seem to be the usual suspects, I cannot comment on the accuracy of translation.

Acharya S gives the book names for Justin's quotes, but does not give book or chapter numbers, or page numbers of any edition.

Her score here?
C.

Well,
that wraps it up for quotes of ancient writers in this article.

There are quite a few quotes of more recent writers, but most of them are 19th C. writers like Massey, Wheless, Taylor, Kuhn, Churchward. She rarely gives proper cites for any quote, making it hard to check the details, even if one wanted to.

What stands out is her reliance on very old authors beloved of secret societies and spiritual cults - here is a crude list of sources I collected by skimming thru this article :

Rev. Robert Taylor, Emperor Julian, Constantine, Albert Churchward, Joseph Wheless, Catholic Encyclopedia, Eusebius, Pope Leo X, Paul, Wheless, Edouard Dujardin, Mangasarian, Philo, Josephus, Bishop Warburton , Wheless, Eusebius, Wheless a lawyer, Taylor, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius, Dr. Alvin Boyd Kuhn, Dujardin, Gerald Massey, Rev. Robert Taylor, Justin Martyr, Minucius Felix, Dr. Christian Lindtner, Ken Humphreys, Dr. Burkhard Scherer, Massey, Graves, Taylor, Tertullian, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, Hotema, Rev. Taylor, Book of Revelation, Massey, Hotema, Churchward, Robertson, Massey, Graham, Biblical Archaeology Review ("BAR"), September/October 1994, Harwood, Walker, Massey, Norman Golb, Rev. Taylor, Eusebius, Wheless, Massey, Greek Septuagint, Aratus, Cleanthes, Mead, Walker, Gerald Massey.

Most of these authors can only be found in old musty lodge libraries, and in reprints in esoteric book stores.

Her main sources appear to be Massey, Wheless, Taylor; as well as writers like Graves and Mead and Hotema and Churchward - mostly writers with very little credibility. May as well cite Sitchin, Von Daniken, Velikovsky or Blavatsky.

I've read most of those works - I've been the librarian of an old masonic lodge, I've read through several Theosophist Society's libraries, a Rosicrucian's secret library, Liberal Catholic Church libraries. (C.W. Leadbeater's funeral was even held in my local LCC.) Libraries where 19th C. writers like Massey and Wheless and Mead and Kuhn and the Secret Doctrine have pride of place. But then I moved on to writers like Metzger, Ehrman, Aland, Crossan and more. It was chalk and cheese. I learned early to check the primary source (as best I can, still no Greek here :-(

It seems Acharya S got stuck in the musty ol' Theosophist/masonic library and never checked with modern writers. She mentions few, if any, names that carry weight around here. Few modern scholars at all.

It's quite clear - her scholarship is very poor.


Iasion

MarmINFP

Those scholars weren't in the bibliography of 'Suns Of God'. I did notice some other names such as Campbell and Kerenyi, but she only quotes twice for each of them. Much of her work is focused on Christianity. Someone like Campbell had a more broad focus. I'd like to see how some of these other scholars could be used to defend a similar astrotheological conclusion as hers.

By the way, Kerenyi was a friend and collaborator with Jung, and Jung was my introduction into comparative mythology. And both of them wrote commentaries to Radin's book 'The Trickster (or via: amazon.co.uk)' which was one of the books that early on fed my interest in mythology.

Here are the quotes I was referring to from 'Suns Of God':

p. 95
p. 100
p. 101
p. 460

youngalexander

TCC p158;
Gentle & polite seekers after truth all, may I recommend your own prescriptions - primary sources!

GakuseiDon

Tertullian "further ironically admits"? :huh:

Are those the dates listed in her book, YA? I see that Doane's "Bible Myths" was published in 1882, and Wheless's "Forgery in Christianity" in 1930.