Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Julian · 01-27-2006, 06:36 AM

This is simple math. If we have one person claiming there were 500 witnesses, how many witnesses do we have?

A) 0
B) 1
C) 500
D) 501

You will be graded on this.

Avatar · 01-27-2006, 08:22 AM

B

Isn't it interesting that the Bible's winesses are in such round numbers?

Julian · 01-27-2006, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avatar

B

Isn't it interesting that the Bible's winesses are in such round numbers?

Incorrect but close. B+

Codec · 01-27-2006, 08:38 AM

500 implied witnesses
1 Witness to the claimed witnesses
0 actual direct witnesses

so A (or C if you believe the witnesss to the witnesses validates the witnesses).

Julian · 01-27-2006, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Codec

500 implied witnesses
1 Witness to the claimed witnesses
0 actual direct witnesses

so A (or C if you believe the witnesss to the witnesses validates the witnesses).

Correct. A+

Paul nevers claims to be a witness himself. And a claim of witnesses is not the same as actual witnesses. Hence A = 0. The whole statement is bogus, to use a technical term.

Julian

Boro Nut · 01-27-2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecrasez L'infame

I've heard an interesting theory about the 500, ....Generations later, the Chauvinist takes this list and deletes the name Mary....Still later, the Cautious editor, adds delete 'then he was seen again'....and after yet another few years the Incautious editor misreads the note as 'by above 500' has been deleted.....My feeling is that this is just incredible enough to be what actually happened.

Not only is this exactly what did happen, 700 people say him doing it! We win by 200!! (Unless anyone cares to make up an even larger spurious number).

Boro Nut

Thomas II · 01-27-2006, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

1 Corinthians 15:6 says "After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep." Now readers, if 500 eyewitnesses with similar world views was convincing, wouldn't 10,000 eyewitnesses with varying world views have been much more convincing? If some Christians ask "why not 10,000,000 eyewitnesses," I will reply "why not everyone in the world?"

My fellow skeptics, would 10,000,000 supposed eyewitnesses with varying world views have been enough for you? Not for me.

By now I think it is clear that all this supernatural stuff was made up by someone. It did not happen. period.
But I still want to find out who the heck was behind all this stories.
I am looking to find a man, or several men. Not a pagan God Roman style, not the "only begotten son of the almighty yadayadayada".
There are some chances to find either a composite of several people, or a man who was part of a sect, maybe the Nazoraeans from the north...
I think I have ever seen a bigger mess regarding personal data...so this ain't gonna be easy...Maybe finding the real person behind the persona will put to rest the useless myth...As far as I am concerned all this pagan mythology attached to "Jesus" is completely out of the question, and what a waste of time it has been for 2000 years!!
So,I am focusing on finding the real guy(s) for a while, and let's see what comes up, but not even obsessively...I'm tired of being jerked around by a belief like this...No wonder people are taking issue, in Italy no less, and actually suing the Church for spreading a false belief ! (in the news today)

Codec · 01-27-2006, 11:00 AM

I found the theory in this book Who Wrote the New Testament? is quite a good hypothesis for how the stories may have grown and developed around a kernel of truth into what we read today. I'm not sure I find all of it convincing, but I find it more believeable than some of the alternatives.

Toto · 01-27-2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreezBee

. . . The Greek word "pistis", usually translated "faith", rather means "evidence". We have not faith, but evidence in the resurrection, is what Paul says. But does this imply physically seeing Jesus or what?

. . .

"pistis" means "evidence"? What is your source for this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Paul nevers claims to be a witness himself.

Actually he does. At the end of his list, he says that Jesus appeared to him, as one untimely born. He uses the same word as he uses for the appearances to the others, but because interpreters have the gospel accounts and Acts firmly in mind, there is a tendency to consider the list starting with Peter as referring to actual post-Resurrection appearances of the risen Christ, while the appearance to Paul is interpreted as something more ethereal and spiritual, not an actual appearance. It seems more reasonable to assume that all of these "appearances" were spiritual.

Julian · 01-27-2006, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Actually he does. At the end of his list, he says that Jesus appeared to him, as one untimely born. He uses the same word as he uses for the appearances to the others, but because interpreters have the gospel accounts and Acts firmly in mind, there is a tendency to consider the list starting with Peter as referring to actual post-Resurrection appearances of the risen Christ, while the appearance to Paul is interpreted as something more ethereal and spiritual, not an actual appearance. It seems more reasonable to assume that all of these "appearances" were spiritual.

Yeah, I see ωφθη for all of them. But that would mean that everybody saw only an apparition and not the fleshy Jesus, right? It is the same word for Peter (here κηφα) so no reason to believe that it was a physical appearance.

Julian

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01-27-2006, 06:36 AM	#11
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	This is simple math. If we have one person claiming there were 500 witnesses, how many witnesses do we have? A) 0 B) 1 C) 500 D) 501 You will be graded on this.

01-27-2006, 08:22 AM	#12
Avatar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 2,817	B Isn't it interesting that the Bible's winesses are in such round numbers?

01-27-2006, 08:38 AM	#14
Codec Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nottingham, UK Posts: 960	500 implied witnesses 1 Witness to the claimed witnesses 0 actual direct witnesses so A (or C if you believe the witnesss to the witnesses validates the witnesses).

01-27-2006, 11:00 AM	#18
Codec Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nottingham, UK Posts: 960	I found the theory in this book Who Wrote the New Testament? is quite a good hypothesis for how the stories may have grown and developed around a kernel of truth into what we read today. I'm not sure I find all of it convincing, but I find it more believeable than some of the alternatives.

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