Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 05-20-2013, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Later the breakaway sect and Judaism became bitter opponents of each other: the Christians attacking the Judaizers in their ranks and Judaism labelling Christians as idolaters and therefore much worse than Islam.

They would say that as closer to home dwelling among them. Notice that they took Peter and Elizabeth with them as their theotokos and called her Mary as kinswoman to make Catholics a grafted branch on their Genesis trunk, for which they threw them 30 pieces of silver to say 'signed, sealed, and delivered' whether you like it or not.

Quote:

Christian Jewish rabbis developed Christianity in endless discussion with Gnostics and gentile philosophers from the second century onwards.

There really is nothing else since the mind of all sentient beings functions the same wherein conscious awareness is needed to survive in a competitive environment for species to survive, and must adapt inside a world of their own that they create for themselves to make this possible.

Chili · 05-21-2013, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Ruah is understood in the sense of ‘Presence’ [the actual presence of Hashem] and ruah hakodesh would be a more explicit form indicating the ‘presence of holiness’.

Once the divine presence is isolated as a concrete temporal divine manifestation , which is what ruah means and also the resident presence in the Holy of Holies, it would be easy to use a gentile form of ruah hakoseh [Holy Spirit] to claim that one is speaking in the Presence of Hashem [God]

In Judaism, the messiah is often understood as pre-existing and waiting in Heaven for the time to come and redeem the nation of Israel.

The Christian Trinity of one God with three manifestations is not all that alien to Jewish thinking.

The Jews were/are not stupid (as that is the last thing I would ever call them, lol), and they are very familiar with the Presence of Holiness that we call Holy Spirit today.

But to accept Him as 'present' would also close the doors of their temple without having 'the promise' received that they call 'Israel' because he moved to Rome where henceforth we claim "Christ among us."

So the question is: "Did the messiah come," or did he he not come?

We say he did and call it HS among us via Rome what they see as Hashem with Presence among them, that in the end is the same for both, wherein we are waiting for the second coming in person to us, while they are waiting for the first coming in person to them (although never proclaimed from the pulpit that way as the mystery contained).

Then let me add that the distance between is the same for Jews and for Catholics because the speed here is not measured in miles-per-second, but in 'loyalty to thine own self' with no idols to deceive. To this end you must agree that neither of them are known to be religion shoppers on Saturday or Sunday, nor any day of the week in between.

The best line I ever wrote to this point is that "a Catholic will believe anything you tell him for as long as you are talking to him" and in this Jews are very much the same.

And then let me remind you of Gal.5:1-4, wherein verse 4 reads that "any of you who seek your justification in the law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from God's favor!" Exclamation not mine, to say that he means what he writes . . . and thus no longer with Presence of Hashem for them!

Bottom line: The promise is the same for both wherein He must come first person to us that itself is already contained in the name 'Is-ra-el' to translate as 'one-with-God' instead of a piece of land by that name (and "woe to you Christians" who made Israel what it is today).

Chili · 05-21-2013, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Unfortunately, Mary never said whether he was circumcised or not.

Parthenocarpic fruit of the womb is not foreskin related.

Iskander · 05-21-2013, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Ruah is understood in the sense of ‘Presence’ [the actual presence of Hashem] and ruah hakodesh would be a more explicit form indicating the ‘presence of holiness’.

Once the divine presence is isolated as a concrete temporal divine manifestation , which is what ruah means and also the resident presence in the Holy of Holies, it would be easy to use a gentile form of ruah hakoseh [Holy Spirit] to claim that one is speaking in the Presence of Hashem [God]

In Judaism, the messiah is often understood as pre-existing and waiting in Heaven for the time to come and redeem the nation of Israel.

The Christian Trinity of one God with three manifestations is not all that alien to Jewish thinking.

The Jews were/are not stupid (as that is the last thing I would ever call them, lol), and they are very familiar with the Presence of Holiness that we call Holy Spirit today.

But to accept Him as 'present' would also close the doors of their temple without having 'the promise' received that they call 'Israel' because he moved to Rome where henceforth we claim "Christ among us."

So the question is: "Did the messiah come," or did he he not come?

We say he did and call it HS among us via Rome what they see as Hashem with Presence among them, that in the end is the same for both, wherein we are waiting for the second coming in person to us, while they are waiting for the first coming in person to them (although never proclaimed from the pulpit that way as the mystery contained).

Then let me add that the distance between is the same for Jews and for Catholics because the speed here is not measured in miles-per-second, but in 'loyalty to thine own self' with no idols to deceive. To this end you must agree that neither of them are known to be religion shoppers on Saturday or Sunday, nor any day of the week in between.

The best line I ever wrote to this point is that "a Catholic will believe anything you tell him for as long as you are talking to him" and in this Jews are very much the same.

And then let me remind you of Gal.5:1-4, wherein verse 4 reads that "any of you who seek your justification in the law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from God's favor!" Exclamation not mine, to say that he means what he writes . . . and thus no longer with Presence of Hashem for them!

Bottom line: The promise is the same for both wherein He must come first person to us that itself is already contained in the name 'Is-ra-el' to translate as 'one-with-God' instead of a piece of land by that name (and "woe to you Christians" who made Israel what it is today).

Chili · 05-21-2013, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Could the Holy Ghost be Jewish?

The origins of the Holy Spirit came up recently. This articles traces the third part of the Trinity to the Jewish ru'aḥ ha-kodesh (literally, "spirit of holiness") via Philo.

In Buddhism the Holy Ghost sure would not be Jewish nor would Isis have been Jewish either.

The argument can be made that if ru'ah is equal to wind it does not sound very Jewish as indeed wind will move things but is not directional at will. Spirit of Holiness sounds better but may still be at large instead of directed with a specific purpose in mind to be received by the contemplative while in devotion.

That is why the Holy Ghost is a Catholic messenger with something to say and is send by Mary who is their Queen of angels with lots to say.

If we add here that we have free will but are guided by our own intuition where Mary is home -- as in each Catholic to note -- it does not take much to figure out that She is on the lookout for us.

The same would be for Jews as shown in their Gen.3:6 where the woman (we call here Mary because of the Son) is in charge of the TOL and Gen.3:15 shows actually that she is on the lookout for Jews since their Genesis is very much mythology specific. Later Nazareth is that little big city of God inside the mind of the Jew to add Presence to Hashem also.

So I think the Reverent rabbi Rami Shapiro is selling Judaism short, and the Pope will likely agree.

Chili · 05-21-2013, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Could the Holy Ghost be Jewish?

//

This articles traces the third part of the Trinity to the Jewish ru'aḥ ha-kodesh (literally, "spirit of holiness") via Philo.

About the attestation for the "Holy Spirit" via Philo:

Quote:

The first figure to do this in either Judaism or Christianity was Philo of Alexandria, an early first-century Jewish philosopher who sought in his Greek works to integrate Judaism with the Hellenistic school of Neoplatonism, which viewed the universe as emanating in stages from the One, the unknowable origin of all things, to the material world. One way in which he did this was by developing the idea of the ru’aḥ ha-kodesh as a distinct spiritual sphere midway between God and man, the realm of “pure knowledge in which every wise man naturally shares.”

Philo turned out to have much more of an influence on Christianity than on Judaism, in which he was a peripheral figure who was soon forgotten. The Christian notion of the Holy Spirit as the third element of a triadic God whose two other constituents are “the Father” and “the Son” — that is, the creator God of the Old Testament and the divine Jesus of the New Testament — derives largely from him, though Philo himself was no more Trinitarian in his approach than were the rabbis.

But the Christian notion of the Holy Spirit as the third element of a triadic God does not really get airplay until after Nicaea, and when it does it appears to be highly influenced by the Platonist philosophy of Plotinus.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Metaphysics is like math and that does not have to borrow, but will 'lean on' at best.

It would be natural for the transition from Holy Spirit to Holy Ghost when they called the Church to order and declared Mary queen above all.

And if Plotonius called Jesus divine he does not understand Catholicism either.

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