Freethought & Rationalism Archive

judge · 02-12-2012, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

.

I just looked at the two versions of the movie "True Grit," the 1969 Henry Hathaway version and the 2010 Coen Brothers version. I was trying to tell by the narrative changes if we could actually tell which came first.

Liguistically one can easily see the coen bros version dates to Shakespearian times

judge · 02-12-2012, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
As spin would say, "yep", after the Temple crash.
JW:

It's just plain silly to insist that some decree got passed in 70 AD which instituted the use of the term rabbi.

Its the kind of ridiculous nonsense one expects from religious ppl not rationalists.
Xtian theology is more than absurd. We dont need to argue every point as though it mattered. By doing so we concede ground to them we dont have to, and that its unhelpful to

Sceptics are far too intimidated by the claims of xtianity. That is the problem. Sceptics are far too concerned that the theology might just be right.

Iskander · 02-12-2012, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
As spin would say, "yep", after the Temple crash.
JW:

It's just plain silly to insist that some decree got passed in 70 AD which instituted the use of the term rabbi.

Its the kind of ridiculous nonsense one expects from religious ppl not rationalists.
Xtian theology is more than absurd. We dont need to argue every point as though it mattered. By doing so we concede ground to them we dont have to, and that its unhelpful to

Sceptics are far too intimidated by the claims of xtianity. That is the problem. Sceptics are far too concerned that the theology might just be right.

http://www.jewfaq.org/sages.htm

Quote:

Hillel and Shammai

These two great scholars born a generation or two before the beginning of the Common Era

are usually discussed together and contrasted with each other, because they were contemporaries and the leaders of two opposing schools of thought (known as "houses"). .....

Rabbi Hillel was born to a wealthy family in Babylonia...

Rabbi Shammai was an engineer, known for the strictness of his views....

Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai was the youngest and most distinguished disciple of Rabbi Hillel ...

He has been called the "father of wisdom and the father of generations (of scholars)" because he ensured the continuation of Jewish scholarship after Jerusalem fell to Rome in 70 C.E

According to tradition, ben Zakkai was a pacifist in Jerusalem in 68 C.E. when the city was under siege by General Vespasian.

Duvduv · 02-12-2012, 03:56 AM

The source is wrong. Hillel is never referred to as rabbi in any Talmudic sources, and Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai is also never called rabbi. I have no idea who Tracey Rich is - the person who runs that Jewfaq website.

Iskander · 02-12-2012, 10:10 AM

From Solomon Schechter's book

Quote:

But it may have been noticed that I spoke of” compilations” [of the Mishnah]; and here a difficulty comes in for a compilation presupposes the existence of other works, of which the compiler makes use.

Thus there must have been some rabbinic work or works composed long before our Mishnah, and perhaps as early as 30 CE.[ 1]

Note 1-- see D . Hoffmann, Magazin furs die Wissenschaft des judenthums (Berlin), 8, page 170

This work, or collection, would clearly have provided a better means for a true understanding of the period when Rabbinism was still in an earlier stage of its formation, than our present Mishnah of 200 CE

It goes on to say that the compilers may have not included the work of earlier rabbis, either because of its special design or through the carelessness or fancy of its compiler, or through some dogmatic consideration unknown to us.

It also says that the teaching of the Apostle Paul, the antinomian consequences of which became so manifest during the second century, may have brought about a growing prejudice against all allegoric explanations of the scriptures [2]

Note 2--- See R . Eleazarb. Jose of Galilee, where we read that the Mashal (allegoric interpretation) was only used in the prophets and in the Hagiographa “but the words of the Torah and the commandments thou must not interpret them as Mashal”.

It concludes that

Quote:

But whatever the cause, the effect is that we are almost entirely deprived of any real contemporary evidence from the most important period in the history of Rabbinic theology

Aspects of Rabbinic Theology (or via: amazon.co.uk)
Solomon Schechter,
HENDRICKSON publishers, 1998

ISBN 1565632885
Pages 3-4

Sheshbazzar · 02-12-2012, 12:28 PM

Good grief! Schechter's book is written for 20th century audiences.
That people are now familiar with the word 'rabbi' does not imply by his anachronistic usage that this usage would have been equally familiar to first century and earlier Judaism.
This is about as inane as thinking that 1st century and earlier Jews were 'adventists'.

Iskander · 02-12-2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

The pre-Mishnaaic Rabbis or tannaim [1]

Note 1—The Tannaim and Palestinian Amoraim had “ Rabbi” prefixed to their name, the Babylonian Amoraim ”Rab” ; while the special title of respect ,”Rabban” was assigned to Gamaliel I and II , Simeon b. Gamaliel and Jochanan b. Zakai.

In the present work they are all alike designated by R.

Everyman’s Talmud
Abraham Cohen
BN publishing, 2008
Note 1 , page XXXII

Sheshbazzar · 02-12-2012, 02:11 PM

The question is one of -when- these 'rabbi' titles first came to be 'prefixed' or 'assigned' to these early figures.
One might as well indiscriminately claim that Adam, John Hyrcanus II, or Joseph Caiaphas were likewise 'rabbi's'.

judge · 02-12-2012, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

The question is one of -when- these 'rabbi' titles first came to be 'prefixed' or 'assigned' to these early figures.
One might as well indiscriminately claim that Adam, John Hyrcanus II, or Joseph Caiaphas were likewise 'rabbi's'.

The OP makes the following claim.

Quote:

It's really interesting since the term rabbi was not used among the "orthodox" Jews until after the destruction of the Temple,

Just what is meant here by "orthodox" jews. Does that mean "unorthodox" jews might have used it?
I think you'll find that we are dealing with a very narrow usage by some jews and we can't just extrapolate this into the broader culture with any certainty.

andrewcriddle · 02-13-2012, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

5 - 1st known reaction to "Mark" = "Matthew"

"Matthew" understands "Mark's" usage of RBY as Jewish religious teacher:

http://biblos.com/matthew/23-8.htm

Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology

4771 [e] hymeis ὑμεῖς you PPro-N2P

1161 [e] de δὲ moreover Conj

3361 [e] mē μὴ not Adv

2564 [e] klēthēte κληθῆτε shall be called V-ASP-2P

4461 [e] rhabbi ῥαββί* Rabbi; Heb

1520 [e] heis εἷς one Adj-NMS

1063 [e] gar γάρ indeed Conj

1510 [e] estin ἐστιν is V-PI-3S

4771 [e] hymōn ὑμῶν of you PPro-G2P

3588 [e] ho ὁ the Art-NMS

1320 [e] didaskalos διδάσκαλος teacher, N-NMS

3956 [e] pantes πάντες all Adj-NMP

1161 [e] de δὲ moreover Conj

4771 [e] hymeis ὑμεῖς you PPro-N2P

80 [e] adelphoi ἀδελφοί brothers N-NMP

1510 [e] este ἐστε are. V-PI-2P

[/INDENT]
Does not get any clearer.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Actually in two places:
Mark 9:5/Matthew 17:4
Mark 10:51/Matthew 20:23
Matthew replaces Mark's rabbi/rabboni with Lord.

The only places where Matthew uses rabbi in the same way as Mark are that both have Judas (ironically) addressing as rabbi the master whom he is betraying and/or the teacher whose message he is rejecting.

Hence Matthew probably regards Mark's use of rabbi as meaning Lord/master rather than teacher.

Andrew Criddle

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02-12-2012, 03:56 AM	#94
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	The source is wrong. Hillel is never referred to as rabbi in any Talmudic sources, and Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai is also never called rabbi. I have no idea who Tracey Rich is - the person who runs that Jewfaq website.

02-12-2012, 12:28 PM	#96
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Good grief! Schechter's book is written for 20th century audiences. That people are now familiar with the word 'rabbi' does not imply by his anachronistic usage that this usage would have been equally familiar to first century and earlier Judaism. This is about as inane as thinking that 1st century and earlier Jews were 'adventists'.

02-12-2012, 02:11 PM	#98
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The question is one of -when- these 'rabbi' titles first came to be 'prefixed' or 'assigned' to these early figures. One might as well indiscriminately claim that Adam, John Hyrcanus II, or Joseph Caiaphas were likewise 'rabbi's'.

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