Chili

Right brain, left brain and relation between these two until the convergence of the twain mind that is verified by the arrival of the magi and subsequent descent of the dove in evidence that they are one.

quoting

Clement of Rome wrote a letter to the church at Corinth around A.D. 96. In this letter, he explains God in terms compatible with the doctrine of the Trinity. He writes, "Do we not have one God, one Christ, one Spirit of grace which was poured out on us?." Clement also writes, "For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives and the Holy Spirit (on whom the elect believe and hope) . . .In addition, the Trinitarian formula of Matthew 28:19 is quoted twice in The Didache, a church manual written around A.D. 90-100.Ignatius of Antioch wrote several letters before his death in A.D. 117 that mention the Trinity.

Chili

The Didache was written for Catholics for whom the trinity is real until its collapse when they become Christian. This would make it a contradiction for a Christian to believe in the trinity.

spamandham

I'd be more interested in any support for it at all. I don't have the blinders of scripture on.

Clivedurdle

It does look like quite basic psychology - for example Games People Play - and I was interested in its immediate rejection here. The Celts were definitely into triune gods, past present future are continuous issues we all face. It might look facile but it might be correct.

Roger Pearse

Unless you can document these absurd statements from the ancient literary record, I believe that you owe less-experienced readers of this forum an apology.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Chris Weimer

Ha! Don't count on it.

Cege

Clement's letter doesn't explain the doctrine of the Trinity. It just lists the 3 names that Christians worship, i.e. God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit.

It seems to me that Matthew 28:19 does exactly the same thing.

It's the triple recognition of figures referred to as gods/godly (God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit) that raises questions about a single god versus 3 gods, and requires a explanation. One explanation is a trinity which isn't defined in the NT and cannot be logically understood.

Ignatius also lists the 3 names that NT writings indicate are god/gods. He did not offer an explanation of a trinity as far as I've seen.

Writings such as "For our God Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost." ( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians Chapt 18) raise questions of 'how can that be if there is only one God?' It does not answer the questions.

Clivedurdle

Ignatius sounds like an Arian heretic!

Our God Jesus ...conceived...appointment of God...by the Holy Spirit

Surely all that needs to be done is list the various permutations with rough idea of when they were invented and an evolutionary pathway should be evident.

Ignatius has an appointee god who was manufactured in Mary's tummy by the Holy Spirit - whatever that is - it isn't the seed of David - which would make one ask if other references to "the seed of David" are political and theological, about how did god make Jesus a god. The Trinity is then a much later imposed solution by the most powerful group. Co equal sounds like a later invention as well.

Me thinks the NT has been well and truly edited!

Steven Avery

Hi Andrew,

The main original focus of my comment was "patripassian". Were these non-Trinitarian (at least in the later orthodox Athanasian sense) 'heretics' really saying that 'God the Father died on the cross'? Or, in some or all cases was that one of those strained syllogisms that an opponent comes up with ? If we are beset with inaccurate representations today along that line, why not in the 3rd century ?

The quote from Tertullian about many believing like Praxean should also be examined and considered.

As well as the fact that Tertullian's own doctrine would have a hard time passing much orthodox Christian muster today, at least not in the populist Hank Haanegraf and James White sense, nor the various Athanasian Creed or Cappodocian social Trinity views.

And I think a similar question could be asked about the conception of God as 'modalistic' in the New Testament revelation as a heresy. Would ideas of transient modes, 'one at a time', that you sometimes hear of from opponents of 'modalism' accurately reflect a common belief of the 'heretics' ?

Shalom,
Steven