gdeering

Hi John,

A word from the peanut gallery.

I used to believe like you, and it's a common popular belief really, that there must be an historical core to Jesus Story. But two things have convinced me that either there is no historical core - or the guy who went around saying pithy things is so minor to the story that he fades into insignificance.

First is the degree of Midrash that twists the already messy story into knots.

Second, and more important is Paul, and you touched on it. Is Paul the most in-curious person in the world? He goes to Jerusalem speaks to (as some like to assume) apostles / disciples and he doesn't asks any questions? Put yourself in his place wouldn't you want to know everything about the man, and his teachings? On top of this Paul doesn't even like these guys and considers himself right and the "brothers" wrong. So much for the "Rock of the Church" - or the power of authority.

If I spent two weeks with people who knew God then I'd have plenty to bring back to my flock. Paul hardly knows anything about what Jesus said, and barely anything about his life (other than he died). What did he do in Jerusalem, visit old Heretic busting friends?

Maybe that's why you are having a hard time in this thread, I could be on the Jesus-as-historical-figure fence but you have not given me any reason, evidence or insight to bolster the historical core argument.


Gregg

Jayrok

Hi Spamandham,

Is there a thread or post that discusses parts of Mark that were obviously constructed from Josephus?

I see much of Mark taken from Hebrew Scriptures but haven't read much about parallels with Josephus.

Thanks,
Jay

Jayrok

Hi Gregg,

How do we know Paul didn't ask them questions about Jesus? From his letters, Paul seems to be a proud man. He wants his readers to know he didn't get help from the "pillars" in Jerusalem. He got his gospel from revelation, not word of mouth from Peter and the gang.

But that doesn't mean he didn't get information from Peter and the gang. Just that he didn't write about it in his letters to the churches. Maybe he didn't want the Galatians to know he gathered info from Jerusalem.

If they thought he did get info from the other Apostles about Jesus, maybe it might diminish his authority just a bit since he claimed he got all his gospel from Jesus himself through revelation. I agree that it's odd that he didn't seem interested in details about Jesus, but to claim he didn't talk to Peter about Jesus is just another argument from silence. Because it isn't written doesn't mean it didn't take place.

That said, I think arguments from silence are valuable to consider. But I wouldn't want to lean on them solely as evidence. Just a thought.

Steven Carr

I can see why Paul would have wanted people to think he hadn't got info from the Apostles. Who wants a leader who had been briefed by the people who knew Jesus personally? The very idea of being taught by somebody who had got information direct from the brother of Jesus would have seemed foolishness to Paul's readers.

His readers would have thought that all this oral tradition was being passed on to them, but that Paul had been kept out of the loop, not being told info from the other apostles.

Yes, that would have raised his authority - the fact that he did not get info from the apostles, while everybody else got all this oral tradition handed on to them.

Unless the other people also had no oral tradition handed on to them?

martini

Gal1:11-12 "the gospel I preach is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ".

i was always under the impression that "the gospel" was, beginning to end, all things Christian. if Paul says he learned this gospel only from Yeshua, then that necessarily precludes anything the disciples he met would have told him. he "did not receive it from man" as he EXPLICITLY states.

any claims that Paul learned ANYTHING about his theology of Christianity from the disciples seems to go headlong against this verse ... but perhaps it is an interpolation?

aa5874

You are the one who has just used the "argument from silence". The writer called Paul claimed he got revelations from Jesus, so why do claim, using silence, that he may have asked Peter or the apostles?

The letter writer claimed he went to Arabia, instead of Jerusalem, after his so-called conversion. The letter writer does not seem interested in Peter or the Apostles.

spamandham

I know I've seen specific portions discussed in that regard, but I don't recall if there has been a good thread devoted to that.

One story in particular I recall being based on Josephus is the story of the posessed swine. It's probably still in the archive if you search for "Jewrassic Pork". Joe's thread title stuck with me.

The book "Caesar's Messiah", though generally outrageous, does point out a few good parallels between Mark and Josephus, that seem hard to explain without presuming the author of Mark was familiar with Josephus' writings (or the other way around I suppose).

spamandham

Though I don't buy it, there is an argument that he is only referring to a portion of his gospel here - the part about gentiles not having to be circumcised.

Apparently, ghost Jesus brought Paul up to the third heaven to let him know gentiles didn't have to get their forskins removed, and assigned Paul the ministry of spreading this fantastic message. Yes, circumcision was that important to him.

youngalexander

Shortage of virgins!:devil3:

GakuseiDon

Paul identifies what he himself preaches in Gal 1:11, where he writes "the gospel I preach is not something that man made up".

This is contrasted against Gal 2:7, which some have claimed to be an interpolation: "when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as [the gospel] for the circumcised [was] to Peter..."

If Gal 2:7 is genuine to Paul, then the gospel that Paul preached, the one that was committed to him (presumably by revelation), was the "gospel for the uncircumcised". There is a lot of discussion in the thread on Paul's Gospel:
http://www.freeratio.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=255660