Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 07-01-2012, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There seems to be a general confusion between the Solstice and December 25.

The confusion between the two is an ancient one. For instance Julian in the Apostate, in his oration "Hymn to King Helios", makes the point that the solstice was actually earlier than the festival of the Heliaia, the day of the new sun, on the 25th, but imperceptible.

Ancient writers tended to treat 25 Dec. as the solstice, while being aware that it wasn't technically so. I researched this up some time ago, in a long and rather tedious series of posts:

http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/?p=3247

All the best,

Roger Pearse

tanya · 07-02-2012, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The Julian calendar is a reform of the Roman calendar introduced by Julius Caesar in 46 BC (708 AUC). It took effect the following year, 45 BC (709 AUC), and continued to be used as the civil calendar in some countries into the 20th century. The calendar has a regular year of 365 days divided into 12 months, as listed in Table of months. A leap day is added to February every four years. The Julian year is, therefore, on average 365.25 days long.
The calendar year was intended to approximate the tropical (solar) year. Although Greek astronomers had known, at least since Hipparchus, that the tropical year was a few minutes shorter than 365.25 days, the calendar did not compensate for this difference. As a result, the calendar year gained about three days every four centuries compared to observed equinox times and the seasons. This discrepancy was corrected by the Gregorian reform, introduced in 1582.

Four centuries, after Julius Caesar, we find Eusebius, Athanasius, Jerome, Didymus, Augustine, and other Christian authors, but no internet web site to clarify the definition of winter solstice. As a consequence, they would have observed the sun standing still (i.e. definition of "solstice", aka SOL stasis) three days AFTER the 22 December, i.e. 25 December in the fourth century CE.

Toto · 07-02-2012, 03:15 PM

sotto voce hobby horse split

andrewcriddle · 07-03-2012, 11:43 AM

I've tried to look into this but it seems to involve questions about Plutarch's sources and the different types of calendar used in Egypt. (The most ancient Egyptian calendar slowly moved around the year.)

Massey and Acharya seem to have material about this issue but its reliability is not guaranteed.

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse · 07-03-2012, 12:39 PM

It would be nice to have a proper analysis.

I've been taking a little interest in Acharya S's claims about Horus being "born of a virgin"; unfortunately her material isn't organised in any very straightforward way.

It's difficult tracking the claims across into ancient Egyptian material as well. The relationship between Graeco-Roman sources and genuine ancient Egyptian material are not that clear to me.

Toto · 07-03-2012, 02:24 PM

Everyone was born of a virgin, according to Acharya, even if that virgin was married and had given birth to 10 children before that.

I guess American evangelicals did not originate the idea of secondary virginity.

stephan huller · 07-03-2012, 03:55 PM

clement's palpable disinterest in contemporary ideas about the virginity of Jesus's mother is worth noting. stromata book 7 chapter 16 (from memory)

stephan huller · 07-03-2012, 03:58 PM

also is there a virgin birth without the 25th of december? could irenaeus have believed the virgin birth took place anonymously?

Roger Pearse · 07-06-2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Everyone was born of a virgin, according to Acharya, even if that virgin was married and had given birth to 10 children before that.

It sometimes seems like it. I did see that, if a word *could* mean "virgin", in any context, then it *must* mean "virgin", when convenient for her theory. Convenience is a poor guide to reality.

Poor woman. I wonder what her real story is, behind all this self-taught twaddle, all of it apparently designed only to stifle a bad conscience. She too is somebody's daughter, somebody's child. None of this crud will make her happy, or wise.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Yellum Notnef · 07-06-2012, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Everyone was born of a virgin, according to Acharya, even if that virgin was married and had given birth to 10 children before that.

It sometimes seems like it. I did see that, if a word *could* mean "virgin", in any context, then it *must* mean "virgin", when convenient for her theory. Convenience is a poor guide to reality.

Poor woman. I wonder what her real story is, behind all this self-taught twaddle, all of it apparently designed only to stifle a bad conscience. She too is somebody's daughter, somebody's child. None of this crud will make her happy, or wise.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

No, of course not. The only path to happiness and wisdom is to accept Christ as your savior. Right?

I'm not in any way defending her scholarship but c'mon why not just go all the way and insult her hairstyle and shoes while you're at it. So petty.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-02-2012, 03:15 PM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	sotto voce hobby horse split

07-03-2012, 11:43 AM	#14
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	I've tried to look into this but it seems to involve questions about Plutarch's sources and the different types of calendar used in Egypt. (The most ancient Egyptian calendar slowly moved around the year.) Massey and Acharya seem to have material about this issue but its reliability is not guaranteed. Andrew Criddle

07-03-2012, 12:39 PM	#15
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	It would be nice to have a proper analysis. I've been taking a little interest in Acharya S's claims about Horus being "born of a virgin"; unfortunately her material isn't organised in any very straightforward way. It's difficult tracking the claims across into ancient Egyptian material as well. The relationship between Graeco-Roman sources and genuine ancient Egyptian material are not that clear to me.

07-03-2012, 02:24 PM	#16
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Everyone was born of a virgin, according to Acharya, even if that virgin was married and had given birth to 10 children before that. I guess American evangelicals did not originate the idea of secondary virginity.

07-03-2012, 03:55 PM	#17
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	clement's palpable disinterest in contemporary ideas about the virginity of Jesus's mother is worth noting. stromata book 7 chapter 16 (from memory)

07-03-2012, 03:58 PM	#18
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	also is there a virgin birth without the 25th of december? could irenaeus have believed the virgin birth took place anonymously?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.