Freethought & Rationalism Archive

badger3k · 07-06-2005, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

Using Lee's methods of "interpretation", one would easily come to the conclusion that "The Lord of the Rings" is real history and an inerrant book.

You mean it isn't? But I saw The Master's Eye caught in the lens of Hubble!

Precious....
:Cheeky:

lee_merrill · 07-07-2005, 04:19 PM

Hi everyone,

Quote:

John: No amount of proof change your mind about the inerrancy of the bible.

Well, no, you could rebuild (my favorite prophecy again) ... Babylon.

Quote:

But since you aren't "inerrant" how can you believe in anything you think the bible says?

I can believe a good mathematical proof, even if I then count out the wrong change.

Quote:

Let's go back to Joshua making the sun stand still. What now is your interpretation of this true statement?

We are discussing this in another thread, though! It was apparent motion...

Quote:

Lee: Well, I don't claim it escaped public notice...

Sauron: Yes, you did. At least twice, in fact...

Well, I meant the fall of Tyre as well as the disappearance of its buildings.

"It has been delightful, but I must go now..." (Khalil, in Veggietales "Jonah")

Regards,
Lee

Sauron · 07-07-2005, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Well, no, you could rebuild (my favorite prophecy again) ... Babylon.

Open a Babylon thread. Go right ahead. I'll join you there.

In point of fact, Tyre was the weakest of the arguments I could have offered against fulfilled prophecy. Babylon is one of the strongest I have to offer.

So let's see what you've got, lee merrill. Open a Babylon thread. Everyone else, go pop a bag of popcorn.

Quote:

Well, I meant the fall of Tyre as well as the disappearance of its buildings.

It doesn't matter. The section of the prophecy I quoted is talking about the fall of Tyre and its removal from the world scene of the ancient near east. It isn't talking about the buildings. So your newest handwave doesn't get you any distraction mileage. You are still checkmated by the language of the prophecy.

Quote:

"It has been delightful, but I must go now..." (Khalil, in Veggietales "Jonah")

Why is no one surprised that you suddenly "have to go now."

Sauron · 07-07-2005, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron

Open a Babylon thread. Go right ahead. I'll join you there.

In point of fact, Tyre was the weakest of the arguments I could have offered against fulfilled prophecy. Babylon is one of the strongest I have to offer.

So let's see what you've got, lee merrill. Open a Babylon thread. Everyone else, go pop a bag of popcorn.

It doesn't matter. The section of the prophecy I quoted is talking about the fall of Tyre and its removal from the world scene of the ancient near east. It isn't talking about the buildings. So your newest handwave doesn't get you any distraction mileage. You are still checkmated by the language of the prophecy.

Why is no one surprised that you suddenly "have to go now."

And actually, if you want to have this discussion, lee, I have a request of a personal nature.

I'd like to have it hosted at Freethought Forum. I need the ability to post photographs, maps, etc. Moreover, the moderation is less random over there. So grab yourself an account; you'll even find some theists over there, since it's less formally atheist than this board.

Sven · 07-08-2005, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron

Open a Babylon thread. Go right ahead. I'll join you there.

In point of fact, Tyre was the weakest of the arguments I could have offered against fulfilled prophecy. Babylon is one of the strongest I have to offer.

So let's see what you've got, lee merrill. Open a Babylon thread. Everyone else, go pop a bag of popcorn.

We are already discussing Babylon in the Peanut Gallery in EoG. Needless to say, Lee tries the same tactics there as he did here, and fails miserably, as he did here.

Sauron · 07-08-2005, 08:42 AM

Found the thread. I'm there.

Julian · 07-08-2005, 09:12 AM

Where's the thread? Could I have a linky, plz...?

Never mind, found it...

Johnny Skeptic · 07-09-2005, 09:28 PM

The Tyre prophecy is a flop. Many people other than Ezekiel would have known in advance about Nebby's plans to invade Tyre. Such an invasion would have taken months to plan, and at least hundreds of people would have known about it. Ezekiel might have learned about Nebby's plans to invade Tyre from a spy. Since Nebby was a powerful king with a sizeable empire, most people, not just Ezekiel, would have considered him to be the odds on favorite to defeat Tyre.

Regarding the spreading of nets, they were being spread to dry long before Nebby invaded Tyre.

Regarding Tyre becoming like the top of a rock, James Holding says that that part of the prophecy pertains to the mainland settlement. If that is true, then there is no evidence that the entire mainland settlement ever became life the top of a rock.

Regarding the island eventually ending up underwater, oceanographers will tell us that historically, it has been common for islets to become partially or completely submerged underwater.

The only thing that is at all unusual about the Tyre "prophecy" coming true is that it took God so long to get even with the residents of Tyre, or should I say their descendants who were not even alive when the prophecy was supposedly made. Now that is just plain ridiculous. The texts make it clear that Tyre angered God, so it was actually God against Tyre, not human armies against Tyre. If God's getting even with Tyre had been a boxing match, we could say that God eventually won in the 250th round against puny humans.

lee_merrill · 07-10-2005, 10:13 AM

Hi Johnny,

Well, I don't mind so much if the prophecy is probable! Scripture doesn't seem to restrict predictions to improbable ones, though I agree that improbability makes a prediction more obviously a candidate for a supernatural event...

Blessings,
Lee <- Aaaiiiii! I'll confess, I did it, whatever you say I did, only don't make me discuss Tyre anymore!

Johnny Skeptic · 07-10-2005, 10:37 AM

Lee Merrill wrote: Well, I don't mind so much if the prophecy is probable! Scripture doesn't seem to restrict predictions to improbable ones, though I agree that improbability makes a prediction more obviously a candidate for a supernatural event...

Johnny: That is just the point. There was nothing at all unusual about the Tyre prophecy coming true. Many people other than Ezekiel had to have arrived at the very same general conclusions without any divine inspiration at all. It must have taken months for Nebby to draw up his plans to invade Tyre, and at least hundreds of people would have known about the plans. Once some people learned of Nebby's plans, most of those people would have considered Nebby to be an odds on favorite to defeat Tyre, like Ezekiel intially did but later refuted his own argument and claim that Nebby would fail to defeat Tyre. Ezekiel said that Nebby would enter all of the streets of Tyre and tear down its tower. History disagrees. The Britannica 2002 Deluxe Edition says that Nebby failed in his attempt to conquer Tyre.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-08-2005, 08:42 AM	#316
Sauron Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: In the dark places of the world Posts: 8,093	Found the thread. I'm there.

07-08-2005, 09:12 AM	#317
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	Where's the thread? Could I have a linky, plz...? Never mind, found it...

07-09-2005, 09:28 PM	#318
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	The Tyre prophecy is a flop. Many people other than Ezekiel would have known in advance about Nebby's plans to invade Tyre. Such an invasion would have taken months to plan, and at least hundreds of people would have known about it. Ezekiel might have learned about Nebby's plans to invade Tyre from a spy. Since Nebby was a powerful king with a sizeable empire, most people, not just Ezekiel, would have considered him to be the odds on favorite to defeat Tyre. Regarding the spreading of nets, they were being spread to dry long before Nebby invaded Tyre. Regarding Tyre becoming like the top of a rock, James Holding says that that part of the prophecy pertains to the mainland settlement. If that is true, then there is no evidence that the entire mainland settlement ever became life the top of a rock. Regarding the island eventually ending up underwater, oceanographers will tell us that historically, it has been common for islets to become partially or completely submerged underwater. The only thing that is at all unusual about the Tyre "prophecy" coming true is that it took God so long to get even with the residents of Tyre, or should I say their descendants who were not even alive when the prophecy was supposedly made. Now that is just plain ridiculous. The texts make it clear that Tyre angered God, so it was actually God against Tyre, not human armies against Tyre. If God's getting even with Tyre had been a boxing match, we could say that God eventually won in the 250th round against puny humans.

07-10-2005, 10:13 AM	#319
lee_merrill Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,074	Hi Johnny, Well, I don't mind so much if the prophecy is probable! Scripture doesn't seem to restrict predictions to improbable ones, though I agree that improbability makes a prediction more obviously a candidate for a supernatural event... Blessings, Lee <- Aaaiiiii! I'll confess, I did it, whatever you say I did, only don't make me discuss Tyre anymore!

07-10-2005, 10:37 AM	#320
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Lee Merrill wrote: Well, I don't mind so much if the prophecy is probable! Scripture doesn't seem to restrict predictions to improbable ones, though I agree that improbability makes a prediction more obviously a candidate for a supernatural event... Johnny: That is just the point. There was nothing at all unusual about the Tyre prophecy coming true. Many people other than Ezekiel had to have arrived at the very same general conclusions without any divine inspiration at all. It must have taken months for Nebby to draw up his plans to invade Tyre, and at least hundreds of people would have known about the plans. Once some people learned of Nebby's plans, most of those people would have considered Nebby to be an odds on favorite to defeat Tyre, like Ezekiel intially did but later refuted his own argument and claim that Nebby would fail to defeat Tyre. Ezekiel said that Nebby would enter all of the streets of Tyre and tear down its tower. History disagrees. The Britannica 2002 Deluxe Edition says that Nebby failed in his attempt to conquer Tyre.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.