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Old 06-27-2006, 03:21 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by one allegiance
I'm not sure, but are you saying it is preachy to tell people about Christ and salvation through him? That is our duty as Chritians, evangilizing. It isn't preachy, it is the one true way to God. Atheists tell us to tolerate their beliefs and not impose ours...when they are going agaisnt their philosophy all in the same breath, by not tolerating our intolerance. We are GOING to be mocked and persectued for what we believe and say...that is prophetic, but we are not supposed to be hesitant in suffering, rather rejoiceful in our sufferings. We have been hated for what we believe in...well, since Jesus...but we continue to be headstrong. And don't you think if it was all a big hoax it would be revealed by now. Especially around 100 AD when many Roman historians hated Christians, and would have done anything to tear Christianity apart. Of course it is a double standard...but it will always be like that. We are always expected to tolerate it even though they wont tolerate us.
Methinks hystorically it was the Christians who were first to prosecute and ask questions later (if at all)

"Kill them all, let god sort them out."
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Old 06-27-2006, 03:26 AM   #12
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I would go strongly with urban myth! Since when would country oiks have very high technology like glasses darkly - early magnification I assume? Archimedes several hundred years before had been burning ships with mirrors, that lighthouse definitely was using glass!
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Old 06-27-2006, 03:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by MOTG
Even 18 of the documents speak of His resurrection. Quite amazing! Secular documents show a considerable amount of interest in His death and resurrection.
OK, this is a reasonable start. Please name and provide sources for the secular documents that you claim provide evidence for Jesus resurrection. Then we will have something to talk about.

That is what the Board is for.

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Old 06-27-2006, 03:31 AM   #14
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I first state it, then I can show it. I would not want to be blamed for posting too long a post now would I? Already the post I feel is going to be too long and I have not given you the tonnes of quotes of first century writers and eyewitnesses.

Matthew, John, and Peter were eyewitnesses (original apostles) and recorded this event. Jude was the brother of Christ and recorded his findings. Others did the same such as Luke and Paul. Paul said he saw Jesus resurrected; Luke is as close as you can get to being a first hand account. Mark is also believed to be an eyewitness as there is a specific verse indicated he was at the event of one of Christ's talks. And Roman sources and Jewish sources also record this event of his death. So you have lots of sources recording this event of the historical Jesus in the first century. Many are recording this event who lived at that time, so are they all wrong or lying? It doesn't seem likely, so that takes care of (1)-they even were killed for saying they say Jesus resurrected; they were with him for three and a half years of His ministry too. Sources and quotes are forthcoming in due time.

YHWH is proven by the fact that you did not create yourself, you did not happen all by yourself, but were created. This is Yahweh in agreement with the nature of the being of God who would be righteous and holy as exhibited through Christ, and none can compare to Christ in what He did and performed and said, fulfilling over 60 prophecies which is impossible by man's standards.

This same truth teaches us that the Devil exists, that the reason why man sinned was because he was tempted, not by God (for that would be unrighteous and unholy), but was a predecessor to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were the first God-conscious people. God through the Bible describes what happened to Satan millions or billions of years ago and why he fell out of 3rd heaven as a most beautiful angel now eternally separated from God, and why God had to make the earth desolate and waste in Gen. 1.2 because of his sin and bringing 1/3 of the fallen angels with him after he corrupted the beings that then turned into demons, now disembodied spirits. One of those spirits went into the serpent to tempt Eve. And the Bible says that evil spirit is in your spirit right now though you are a dullard unable to realize it.
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Old 06-27-2006, 03:32 AM   #15
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See, no luck needed, just pure truth.
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Old 06-27-2006, 03:43 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by MOTG
First we must determine whether you understand the Bible's position. Do you understand that the Bible is clearly saying some people are going to hell and some are going to the new city in the new earth?
So what, the Koran makes the same claim. Does that make it true?

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Some people don't want to be saved, so since their soul can not be annihilated (being made in the image of God), God then must put them some place.
You mean that an omnipotent God CAN'T annihilate a soul? How do you explain that?

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They can't be where we are going because there is no sin where we are going.
How do you explain Satan in Job freely trotting back and forth between heaven and earth then?

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Those who can't be where we are going can't because they prefer to remain in sin.
Hmm, so a kid who dies one day past the "age of accountability" as a sinner will taste the fires of hell forever because he chose it, eh? Or some poor African farmer who never heard of sin and Jesus will be tormented forever, because he can't "go where you're going?"

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My hope is that there is no preaching here, and a discussion along this line of reasoning that can then take us to the proof itself such as the eyewitness accounts, miracles, sinless selflessness of Christ, Jesus himself saying He is God, which no man has ever been able to match, martyrs in His name, instances of people seeing Him resurrected and so forth.
We're still awaiting proof of any of these claims.

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I trust that you are aware we have at least 145 different facts of Christ,
Actually we don't have not one solid, secure fact about Jesus. We don't know when he lived, who his parents were, what he said or did, or when or how he died. The Biblical accounts are so tainted with legendary material that it's impossible to separate wheat from chaff.

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49 earliest documents, even 17 that are secular.
Oh really? What are these documents?

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12 of those secular documents speak of His death. 7 even speak of His diety.
I'm not sure where your information is coming from, but it's clearly false. You can prove me wrong however by providing citations from these 12 secular documents that back up your claim.

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Nothing in antiquity is so well recorded as you would expect from God.
Actually what I expect from an omnipotent deity are the original documents themselves, free of errors and contradictions.
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Old 06-27-2006, 03:49 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by one allegiance
I understand what you were saying...I was just wandering why you were surprised to see that you were persecuted for evangilizing, that's all.
You call asking that you abide by the rules of the forum persecution? :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

Would the Christian Internet forums be persecuting a Moslem if they locked a thread that started with him preaching about Mohammed and Allah? Would they be persecuting a pagan that preached about Zeus or witchcraft?
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Old 06-27-2006, 03:49 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by MOTG
I.
And Roman sources and Jewish sources also record this event of his death.
For the second time, please cite sources, or I must assume you are simply making this all up as you go along. You initially claimed 12 secular sources for Jesus death and resurrection. You have not yet even shown us one. If you are simply going to continue along these sort of lines without actually citing documents, you might as well be Troy for all the discussion you are likely to contribute.

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Old 06-27-2006, 06:01 AM   #19
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I guess a vacation bible school task was to go out and preach at IIDB.

Please try to keep the ramble self consistent, at least in each post.

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Originally Posted by MOTG

Matthew, John, and Peter were eyewitnesses
. . .

Luke is as close as you can get to being a first hand account.
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Old 06-27-2006, 06:34 AM   #20
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MOTG,
Think of terminology as simply as you can:
Preaching is the antithesis of discussion or argument.
In preaching, one person basically brays away like a sheep, and the other sheep sit there silently, nodding or perhaps at most, murmering an occasional "baaaaaa."
In disucssionl, or esp. in formal argument, other people get to speak, to contest each other's statements, and so on.
This leads to something remarkable in itself: each person has to support what he/she says, with facts, verifiable (expert) testimony, and so on.

Now, which method are you recommending?
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