Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-29-2008, 10:13 PM

Christian Art prior to 313 and the Good Pagan Shepherd.

Another blatant christian appropriation of archaeological relics which might make illuminating discussion is the widely accepted notion, substantiated by outrageous conjecture that the Cleveland Statuettes of Jonah and the Whale are "early christian relics".

The following is quoted from the The Cleveland Museum in reference to a series of statuettes known as the Jonah Marbles. They are believed to be sourced from Asia Minor, probably Phrygia (Central Turkey), 3rd century c. 270-280, and are described by the museum - for some unknown reason - as early christian. Here is what the Museum writes ...

Quote:

The Symbolism of the Jonah Marbles

The sculptures conform to a language of symbols developed by early Christians. The Good Shepherd represents Christ as the savior of his Christian flock. The four figures of Jonah depict incidents from the biblical story. Swallowed by a "great fish" for his disobedience to God, Jonah spent three days within the beast's stomach. After repenting, he was disgorged unharmed. Jonah Swallowed and Jonah Cast Up were understood by early Christians to represent the death and resurrection of Christ. The gourd vine under which Jonah rests was another symbol of the resurrection. The image of Jonah resting developed from pagan mythological figures who, after sleeping, arose to everlasting life in paradise. The figure of Jonah Praying with arms extended in the "orant" position may represent either his repentance within the whale's belly or his thankfulness after his deliverance.

Again, the christian presumption enters without being summoned.
Jonah is a figure in the pre-christian Hebrew bible.
Examine the figurines carefully.
There is no "christian copyright symbol".

Best wishes,

Pete

J-D · 10-29-2008, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

The fragment is being misrepresented. You have to indicate that STA, IH and QW were all indicated as sacred words with a line over them. They are not the results of lacunae. They are means of indicating the religious significance of the words, as can be seen in the fragments from Oxyrhynchus and later fragments.

Dear Pat,

At the head of this post, the scribal abbreviations on the fragment are being misrepresented. My detractors are either unaware of, or purposefully avoiding the issues related to a dispute about the nature of these "nomina sacra". Essentially, the question is whether these overlined words indeed bear a sacred meaning or whether in fact they represent a mere scribal shorthand, employed for the technological convenience of abbreviation (especially upon stone). See further some notes on these so-called nomina sacra These scribal abbreviations are just that. The abbreviation for example used in the fragment is an abbreviation of the name of Joshua, one of the foundational Hebrew sages of yore, who succeeded Moses. It need not be rendered Jesus, and thus the entire fragment could have been a story about the "Ascenscion of Joshua", which did not survive intact to this day (yet).

It 'could have been' something for which there is no evidence whatsoever. But there is no reason to think so.

J-D · 10-29-2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

It is far more likely that anyone -who wanted his words to be understood- would be preaching in the local language, rather than Hebrew which would have a very limited audience actually capable of understanding what was being said.
And of course a clue here, is of the Greek women and men, (as distinct from the Jews) understanding and believing what was being preached.

Dear Sheshbazzar,

I too totally agree that It is far more likely that anyone -who wanted his words to be understood- would be preaching in the local language of the Roman empire which is, as everyone here knows, primarily consisted either of Greek (for the academics) and/or Latin (for the others). Anyone who could not converse in the common language was not going to be too successful, and anyone who could not speak in either Greek or Latin was considered as essentially uneducated.

Thus IMO the Acts of Philip has been authored by a satirist:

Quote:

[Philip] said:

I know not Latin or Greek,
and the people there
do not know Aramaic

Someone (Arius of Alexandria!) was taking the f**king mickey out of Philp.

Best wishes,

Pete

Describing somebody as lacking in higher education could be mockery--but it could also be no more than factuality.

spamandham · 10-29-2008, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I don't think you mean quite that!?

...pre-Constantine if you prefer...

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

What problem do you see? The fresco just has three women and a tomb. It shows nothing else, no contextualization. It is just the tomb and the women and you don't know from the image where they are.

It shows a sarcophagus (presumably) rather than a hewn tomb with a stone rolled aside. The canonicals make no mention of such a thing.

...perhaps I'm getting muddled here..., but my understanding of Jewish burial practices of the time involved placing wrapped bodies into hewn rock (which is what is described in the canonicals) - typically on an open shelf, rather than into a sarcophagus. Once the body had rotted, bones were collected up into ossuaries so the tomb could be re-used....again, I'm going from questionable memory at this point.

Ben C Smith · 10-30-2008, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

But the fresco in question is claimed to be from pre-Roman Christianity. A sarcophagus in that context is out of place for the canonical Gospel story.

Pre-Roman Christianity? All Christianity dates from Roman times (or later). If you think it took Constantine to syncretize Roman customs with Christian beliefs, I think you are quite mistaken.

Ben.

Ben C Smith · 10-30-2008, 05:29 AM

Ben C Smith · 10-30-2008, 05:37 AM

spamandham · 10-30-2008, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

But the fresco in question is claimed to be from pre-Roman Christianity. A sarcophagus in that context is out of place for the canonical Gospel story.

Pre-Roman Christianity?

I was unclear. I was referring to the period of Christianity being the official religion of Rome.

Ben C Smith · 10-30-2008, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Pre-Roman Christianity?

I was unclear. I was referring to the period of Christianity being the official religion of Rome.

Yes, I gathered that, and I am saying that I see no reason for Christian art to have awaited Constantine before appropriating Roman themes. A Christian not familiar with Jewish burial practices may well be expected to portray the burial of Christ in a more familiar way. Most ancient Christians were not modern scholars.

Ben.

spamandham · 10-30-2008, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Yes, I gathered that, and I am saying that I see no reason for Christian art to have awaited Constantine before appropriating Roman themes. A Christian not familiar with Jewish burial practices may well be expected to portray the burial of Christ in a more familiar way. Most ancient Christians were not modern scholars.

Ben.

Fair enough, but why then do the canonicals depict a Jewish style burial? I suppose it could be argued that the earliest Christians had a Jewish perspective and so depicted a Jewish burial, but later Christians grafted Roman themes into their religion.

I have no problem with that, but it's starting to become contrived - far from a slam dunk against MM's hypothesis.

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10-30-2008, 05:29 AM	#386
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787

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