Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-19-2005, 03:52 PM

This site claims:

Jews in Roman Empire:

25% of Roman population in Eastern Mediterranean
10% of entire Roman Empire
48 C.E. Roman census: 7 million Jews (mostly in Judea, Egypt, Syria, Asia Minor, Babylon, Iran, Yemen and Ethiopia) for an estimated total of 8 million world wide.

Rodney Stark (searchable on Amazon) at p. 57 quotes one scholar who estimates the Jewish population of Palestine at 1 million and the diaspora Jewish population at 4 million, and another who estimates the diaspora population at 5-6 million. (I'm not sure what years this refers to - I think 1st-2nd century.) Stark believes that early Christianity grew by appealing to diaspora Jews living in urban areas with a weak attachment to their tradition, but he calculates that only 1 in 5 needed to have converted to Christianity to match his estimates of Christians.

Timeline of the Roman Empire notes these landmark dates between the early 1st century and the 6th century which might have contributed to a decrease in the Jewish population:

Quote:

70 AD: Tito destroys Jerusalem and Jews spread in Armenia, Iraq, Iran, Arabia, Egypt, Italy, Spain and Greece

132: Jews, led by Bar-Cochba, whom some identify as the Messiah, revolt against Roma

136: emperor Hadrian definitely crushes the Jewish resistance, forbids Jews from ever entering Jerusalem, and changes the name of the city to Aelia Capitolina

380: Theodosius I proclaims Christianity as the sole religion of the Roman Empire

527: Byzantium enforces anti-Jewish laws and the Jews all but disappear from the eastern Roman Empire

This site says

Quote:

The Jewish position in Rome began to deteriorate during the reign of Constantine the Great (306-336), who enacted laws limiting the rights of Jews as citizens. Jewish synagogues were destroyed by Christian mobs in 387-388 and in 493-526 (during the reign of Theodoric). When Rome was captured by Vandals in 455, spoils of the Jerusalem Temple were taken to Africa.

Once Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, emperors further limited the civil and political rights of the Jews. Most of the imperial laws dealing with the Jews since the days of Constantine are found in the Latin Codex Theodosianius (438) and in the Latin and Greek code of Justinian (534). Some of the relevant decrees in these codes include prohibitions against making proselytes, intermarriage, owning slaves (slave labor was very common and this prohibition severely restricted the economic life of the Jews), holding any esteemed position in the Roman state, building new synagogues and testifying against Orthodox Christians in court.

It should also be noted that the population of the Roman Empire fell. From here

Quote:

There was famine in the remnants of the Roman Empire on and off from 400 to 800. There was a plague in the 500’s. The Empire’s population dropped by 50%. The city of Rome’s population dropped 90%. By 700, only Constantinople-- capital of the eastern Roman Empire -- had more than 100,000 people.

This is just a casual survey of readily available sources, but it seems clear that the Jewish and non-Jewish population of the Roman Empire fell, that there were fewer Jews - in part due to conversion, but more likely due to oppression and legal discrimination (which might have fueled conversion) and to the general conditions of the decline of the Roman Empire.

penumbra · 10-19-2005, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adf1972

The way she sees it, the Jews were at fault first. If they hadn't persecuted Christians, cultivated hatred for Christians, tried to tear down churches, and tried to cheat Christians with usurious lending practices, then the Christians & the Church would have left the Jews alone. Basically, she blames Jews for bringing expulsions, conversion drives, and pogroms upon themselves all through history.

She claims that's a lie, that no Jew was ever threatened with the choice of conversion or death. She does blame those Jews who outwardly converted but continued to practice secret Judaism for being deceptive, however. That's why Jews had to be expelled from Spain in 1492, she claims -- because these lying crypto-Jews were cheating and angering the Christian populace. The expulsion was for the Jews' own good, as it protected them from the wrath and revenge of the Christian hoi polloi. I'm telling you, the lady's a dyed-in-the-wool antisemite.

Now, she claims to have "discovered" all of this through her reading, but I'm not sure what books she's reading (she doesn't cite sources). I would like to find facts and figures that refute her claims, though, as I'm sure some of them are completely bogus. And unfortunately, some of the people on this board seem to be finding her slams against Jews and Judaism convincing (nobody is arguing for the other side). I doubt that posting opposing evidence would ever convince the lady herself that she's wrong about Jews, but maybe it would persuade some lurkers, who knows.

Hmmmm....sounds a lot like some of the Nazi propaganda from WWII. She's probably reading from some looney web site. Call her out on providing sources. If she can't back up her claims, she should retract.

Jabu Khan · 10-19-2005, 05:26 PM

I thought the score was something like Jesus: 12, Jews: kill 'em

adf1972 · 10-19-2005, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penumbra

Hmmmm....sounds a lot like some of the Nazi propaganda from WWII. She's probably reading from some looney web site. Call her out on providing sources. If she can't back up her claims, she should retract.

Well, unfortunately she's the hostess and owner of this particular board. And I checked other parts of her website, and sure enough, there are links to Jewish Tribal Review and I think Institute for Historical Review stuff.

And actually, I've come to the conclusion that the most rabidly antisemitic poster on her message board is probably the notorious historical revisionist and Jew-hater Michael A. Hoffman II, posting under an alias. Hoffman once wrote an ugly letter to Michael Shermer of Skeptic magazine when Skeptic devoted a whole issue to Holocaust revisionism. I guess Shermer took on some of Hoffman's propaganda in that issue, although I've never seen what he wrote about Hoffman.

Still, though, I like to hear the claims made by "the other side", because it spurs me to research the subject for myself and to find reliable sources for the info. And as I said before, there are lurkers out there who might benefit from seeing the truth posted. I doubt the message board owner will ever change her views on Judaism, and I'll probably end up getting banned sooner or later, but what the hey....

Thanks for all the info on this thread so far.

One of the claims made was that the Jews in the Bar-Kolchba(sp?) rebellion murdered tons of Roman Christians in the uprising. Are there any stats or good guesses as to how many Romans were Christians when that event occurred?

Alethias · 10-20-2005, 09:45 AM

This essay makes it clear that the Bar-kochba revolt wasn't targetting Christians, it was targeting romans. If that Roman just so happened to be a Christian, the Jewish revolt killed him indiscriminantly just as they killed non-christian Romans.

A similar thing happened in the crusades, Jews, Christians and Muslims were all killed by crusaders. If you lived there and in any way resisted, you died.

In war, if you are the enemy, you can die, regardless of your religion.

To use this as an excuse to Jews?

SoT

andrewcriddle · 10-20-2005, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordOfTruth

This essay makes it clear that the Bar-kochba revolt wasn't targetting Christians, it was targeting romans. If that Roman just so happened to be a Christian, the Jewish revolt killed him indiscriminantly just as they killed non-christian Romans.

Justin Martyr in his 1st apology says

Quote:

For in the Jewish war which lately raged, Barchochebas, the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be led to cruel punishments, unless they would deny Jesus Christ and utter blasphemy

The historical basis of this is unclear, but it seems clear that Bar-Kochba claimed to be the Messiah and sought general Jewis recognition of his Messianic claims.

This would very likely bring him into conflict with Jewish Christians who held that the Messiah had already come (and wasn't Bar-Kochba.)

Andrew Criddle

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10-19-2005, 05:26 PM	#13
Jabu Khan Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: the impenetrable fortress of the bubbleheads Posts: 1,308	I thought the score was something like Jesus: 12, Jews: kill 'em

10-20-2005, 09:45 AM	#15
Alethias Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 7,198	This essay makes it clear that the Bar-kochba revolt wasn't targetting Christians, it was targeting romans. If that Roman just so happened to be a Christian, the Jewish revolt killed him indiscriminantly just as they killed non-christian Romans. A similar thing happened in the crusades, Jews, Christians and Muslims were all killed by crusaders. If you lived there and in any way resisted, you died. In war, if you are the enemy, you can die, regardless of your religion. To use this as an excuse to Jews? SoT

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