Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jdl · 04-23-2012, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Imagine, posting using our own real names because we weren't going to say anything that would get us fired.

All I can say is I'm extremely fortunate that my Christian partner is such an understanding person. If she weren't, I'd be posting under a pseudonym. One's employment is hardly the only consideration.

Joseph

mountainman · 04-23-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If it were true it would help explain how Ehrman made the jump in Lost Christianities to claim that Morton Smith claimed that the Letter to Theodore was describing a homosexual rite (something which simply isn't an itnerest in any of Smith's books on his discovery). If this is a similar situation you could see that the author really doesn't believe that the case is a slam dunk against mythicism. As in the case with Lost Christianities the certainty is necessary to make a good read. You have to metaphorically iron out the wrinkles to get the clarity which is present on each page - the certainty. If it were true it would help explain why Ehrman is such a good writer - everything is artificially present as black and white. That makes the reading so much easier.

Hi Stephan

Bart Ehrman may be over simplifying Morton Smith's interpretation of the Letter to Theodore.

On the other hand: On page 185 of Clement of Alexandria and a Secret Gospel of Mark Morton Smith states that Clement is implying that the Carpocratian version of the ritual described in the Letter to Theodore is homosexual. (I agree that Morton Smith goes on to express grounds for doubting that this was made explicit in the Carpocratian text of Secret Mark.) On pages 113-114 of The Secret Gospel Morton Smith claims that Jesus' baptism, in which the disciple was spiritually united with Jesus by unknown ceremonies, (probably involving manipulation), led in some forms of gnostic Christianity to the completion of the spiritual union of baptizer and baptized by physical union. Of this physical union of baptizer and baptized Morton Smith claims, how early it began there is no telling.

Taken as a whole Morton Smith's position seems to be that the ritual described in the Letter to Theodore developed among some 2nd century groups, such as the Carpocratians, in ways that were understood by their opponents as homosexual. This understanding was in some cases justified. Morton Smith is uncertain as to how far these developments had a basis in the original form of the ritual.

There is a further alternative explanation that has not been discussed openly, namely that the text which Smith found is in fact a genuine text which was originally composed as a satire against Jesus and the Apostles. The construction of the text is such that it insinuates a homosexual Jesus and homosexual apostles. The gnostics routinely used satire and parody to poke fun in the orthodox beliefs - this may be just another example.

Bingo the Clown-O · 04-24-2012, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Was Spin's Critique of Earl Doherty's Theory Better than Bart Ehrman's?

Yes.

mountainman · 04-24-2012, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

spin really has no weaknesses as a scholar as far as I can see.

Archaeology. Spin thinks that the Dura-Europos-Yale mural motifs archaeological evidence is CERTAIN evidence for 3rd century canon-following Christians. His normal reliable dependable agnosticism reserved for textual criticism appears to have fled in the face of certitude based on - at the end of the day examining the evidence ... artistic appreciation of motifs on the walls of a suspected single sole exemplar of a christian "house-church". (NOTE: We have no others. We have no church-houses, and we have no churches).

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