Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ktotwf · 11-21-2010, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Israel is destined to be the seat of the Messiah...when that happens Yeshua's kingdom will not only become of the world...it will be the world.

I'll take that bet. 100 dollars?

sugarhitman · 11-21-2010, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorit Maqueda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

How critics have missed the word "until" in there is beyond me.

If we are going to make arguments based on a single word, perhaps we should ask ourselves if the author really intended to use that word with that exact "English" meaning.

I don't know NT Greek. But here is, for instance, NIV's translation:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIV

And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

The Greek word έως. is not translated correctly in the NIV..it means until in English. http://mymemory.translated.net/t/English/Greek/until

Sheshbazzar · 11-21-2010, 10:03 PM

sugarhitman, I am not arguing your translation, but that seems to be strange source to be referencing to prove the translation of a Bible word.
Might I recommend the Blue Letter Bible
It will allow you to find every occurance of any word in The Bible, with both the Hebrew and Greek text, The translations of all major Versions, and Concordance reference for each word listing how many times it appears, every English word used to translate it, and every verse it occurs in.
Plus commentaries.
Reference material don't get much better, dependable, or easier than that.

sugarhitman · 11-21-2010, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

sugarhitman, I am not arguing your translation, but that seems to be strange source to be referencing to prove the translation of a Bible word.
Might I recommend the Blue Letter Bible
It will allow you to find every occurance of any word in The Bible, with both the Hebrew and Greek text, The translations of all major Versions, and Concordance reference for each word listing how many times it appears, every English word used to translate it, and every verse it occurs in.
Plus commentaries.
Reference material don't get much better, dependable, or easier than that.

I got no results from your site. But here I hope this ends this dispute.

Quote:

eek Lexicon Number
Previous Strong's #G2192 Next Strong's #G2194

ἕως
until, till

ἕως a conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place)
Derivation: of uncertain affinity;
KJV Usage: even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-)til(-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while(-s).
Thayer:
1) till, until

http://studybible.info/strongs/G2193

Joan of Bark · 11-22-2010, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Yes, because everyone on Earth was evil (and who made them that way?). Every man, woman, and child (all those evil babies!).

And of course YHWH, being omnipotent, had no options but total annihilation. Then again, being omniscient, He knew from the beginning all this would come to pass, making Him grossly incompetant or a sadist. Which is it?

Deut 2:32

Oh yeah, in His great mercy, He allowed some towns to continue. Others weren't so lucky. Oh, loving God! Oh, merciful God!

Mrs. Bark, humans are like God...Intelligent beings...and God destroyed the world because of evil and the corruption of the human genetic pool when the rebellious angels pro-created with humans.

First of all, I'm not a Mrs. Why would you assume that?

Secondly, why did God create rebellious angels in the first place? And why didn't He stop them from procreating with humans? And since He was omniscient, why did He let this all come about to start with? And what was the purpose of slaughtering the entire human race, save eight people, when He said afterwards that every inclination of humans is evil from childhood. Slaughtering everyone solved nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

*sigh* Did you intentionally ignore the relevant info Mrs. Bark?

Quote:

Then the LORD said to me, Do not harass the Moabites or provoke them to war, for I will not give you any part of their land. I have given Ar to the descendants of Lot as a possession. (The Emites used to live there— a people strong and numerous, and as tall as the Anakites. Like the Anakites, they too were considered Rephaites, but the Moabites called them Emites...Horites used to live in Seir, but the descendants of Esau drove them out. They destroyed the Horites from before them and settled in their place, just as Israel did in the land the LORD gave them as their possession.)....When you come to the Ammonites, do not harass them or provoke them to war, for I will not give you possession of any land belonging to the Ammonites. I have given it as a possession to the descendants of Lot....(That too was considered a land of the Rephaites, who used to live there; but the Ammonites called them Zamzummites. They were a people strong and numerous, and as tall as the Anakites. The LORD destroyed them from before the Ammonites, who drove them out and settled in their place. The LORD had done the same for the descendants of Esau, who lived in Seir, when he destroyed the Horites from before them. They drove them out and have lived in their place to this day. And as for the Avvites who lived in villages as far as Gaza, the Caphtorites coming out from Caphtor destroyed them and settled in their place.)

Deut 2

You see Mrs. Bark, what we see here is the destruction of the remnants of the Nephilim whose lands were settled by the Adamic tribes...not just the Israelites. You are false visualizing ma'am.

So next time, do pay attention when reading the texts.

Yeah, and anyone who works on the sabbath should be put to death. How you can take this shit literally is beyond me.

Doug Shaver · 11-22-2010, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

I converted from reading the texts

My question in post #59 was not rhetorical. I would appreciate a response.

sugarhitman · 11-22-2010, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Mrs. Bark, humans are like God...Intelligent beings...and God destroyed the world because of evil and the corruption of the human genetic pool when the rebellious angels pro-created with humans.

First of all, I'm not a Mrs. Why would you assume that?

Secondly, why did God create rebellious angels in the first place? And why didn't He stop them from procreating with humans? And since He was omniscient, why did He let this all come about to start with? And what was the purpose of slaughtering the entire human race, save eight people, when He said afterwards that every inclination of humans is evil from childhood. Slaughtering everyone solved nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

*sigh* Did you intentionally ignore the relevant info Mrs. Bark?

Deut 2

You see Mrs. Bark, what we see here is the destruction of the remnants of the Nephilim whose lands were settled by the Adamic tribes...not just the Israelites. You are false visualizing ma'am.

So next time, do pay attention when reading the texts.

Yeah, and anyone who works on the sabbath should be put to death. How you can take this shit literally is beyond me.

Quote:

First of all, I'm not a Mrs. Why would you assume that?

Oh, because of the name Joan ...my bad.

Quote:

Secondly, why did God create rebellious angels in the first place? And why didn't He stop them from procreating with humans? And since He was omniscient, why did He let this all come about to start with? And what was the purpose of slaughtering the entire human race, save eight people, when He said afterwards that every inclination of humans is evil from childhood. Slaughtering everyone solved nothing.

Freewill...Humans are like God, intelligent and able to choose between good and evil...sadly both the angels and the humans chose evil....therefore God killed them and the hybrids.

Quote:

Yeah, and anyone who works on the sabbath should be put to death. How you can take this shit literally is beyond me.

Correction, any rebel who thinks that they could do what they want, are going to die...sorry.

spamandham · 11-22-2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Correction, any rebel who thinks that they could do what they want, are going to die...sorry.

Everyone dies, rebel or not. You're going to die too, and so will everyone you love.

Sheshbazzar · 11-22-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

sugarhitman, I am not arguing your translation, but that seems to be strange source to be referencing to prove the translation of a Bible word.
Might I recommend the Blue Letter Bible
It will allow you to find every occurance of any word in The Bible, with both the Hebrew and Greek text, The translations of all major Versions, and Concordance reference for each word listing how many times it appears, every English word used to translate it, and every verse it occurs in.
Plus commentaries.
Reference material don't get much better, dependable, or easier than that.

I got no results from your site. But here I hope this ends this dispute.

Please explain what you mean by 'I got no results from your site'.
The link seems to work fine.

I got nothing to lose as I agree with you on the translation of this word 'until'.

Here is some of the information that can be derived from the Blue Letter Bible site about this word 'until' (there are 14 pages of listings for 'until', so I'm posting only one)

Quote:

Printed from the Blue Letter Bible

Search Results for -until-
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Custom Selection:
Use semicolons to separate groups: 'Gen;Jdg;Psa-Mal' or 'Rom 3-12;Mat 1:15;Mat 5:12-22'
Dictionary Results -----Results for "Until" ------- Until and Unto [V] (Key)

Dictionaries:
C = Condensed Biblical Cyclopedia
E = Easton's Dictionary
H = Hitchcock's Dictionary
I = International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
K = King James Version Dictionary
N = Nave's Topical
S = Subject Guide
T = Torrey's Topical
V = Vine's Dictionary
KJV Concordance for -until-

(until)
occurs 366 times in 350 verses in the KJV
Page 13 / 14 inexact matches (Mat 18:22 - Act 13:20)
Line-By-Line Order:
Verse-Reference
Reference-Verse
Separate Line
Verse Only
Reference Only Reference Delimiters:
none—Jhn 1:1 KJV
square—[Jhn 1:1 KJV]
curly—{Jhn 1:1 KJV}
parens—(Jhn 1:1 KJV)
Paragraph Order:
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No Delimiter — 15
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* 'Number Delimiters' only apply to 'Paragraph Order'
Mat 18:22 Jesus 2424 saith 3004 unto him 846, I say 3004 not 3756 unto thee 4671, Until 2193 seven times 2034: but 235, Until 2193 seventy times 1441 seven 2033.
Mat 24:38 For 1063 as 5618 in 1722 the days 2250 that were 2258 before 4253 the flood 2627 they were eating 5176 and 2532 drinking 4095 , marrying 1060 and 2532 giving in marriage 1547 , until 891 the day 2250 that 3739 Noe 3575 entered 1525 into 1519 the ark 2787,
Mat 24:39 And 2532 knew 1097 not 3756 until 2193 the flood 2627 came 2064 , and 2532 took 142 0 them all 537 away 142 ; so 3779 shall 2071 0 also 2532 the coming 3952 of the Son 5207 of man 444 be 2071 .
Mat 26:29 But 1161 I say 3004 unto you 5213, I will 4095 0 not 3754 3364 drink 4095 henceforth 575 737 of 1537 this 5127 fruit 1081 of the vine 288, until 2193 that 1565 day 2250 when 3752 I drink 4095 it 846 new 2537 with 3326 you 5216 in 1722 my 3450 Father's 3962 kingdom 932.
Mat 27:64 Command 2753 therefore 3767 that the sepulchre 5028 be made sure 805 until 2193 the third 5154 day 2250, lest 3379 his 846 disciples 3101 come 2064 by night 3571, and steal 2813 0 him 846 away 2813 , and 2532 say 2036 unto the people 2992, He is risen 1453 from 575 the dead 3498: so 2532 the last 2078 error 4106 shall be 2071 worse than 5501 the first 4413.
Mat 28:15 So 1161 they took 2983 the money 694, and did 4160 as 5613 they were taught 1321 : and 2532 this 3778 saying 3056 is commonly reported 1310 among 3844 the Jews 2453 until 3360 this day 4594.
Mar 14:25 Verily 281 I say 3004 unto you 5213, I will 3364 drink 4095 no more 3754 3765 of 1537 the fruit 1081 of the vine 288, until 2193 that 1565 day 2250 that 3752 I drink 4095 it 846 new 2537 in 1722 the kingdom 932 of God 2316.
Mar 15:33 And 1161 when 1096 0 the sixth 1623 hour 5610 was come 1096 , there was 1096 darkness 4655 over 1909 the whole 3650 land 1093 until 2193 the ninth 1766 hour 5610.
Luk 1:20 And 2532, behold 2400 , thou 2071 shalt be dumb 4623 , and 2532 not 3361 able 1410 to speak 2980 , until 891 the day 2250 that 3739 these things 5023 shall be performed 1096 , because 473 3739 thou believest 4100 not 3756 my 3450 words 3056, which 3748 shall be fulfilled 4137 in 1519 their 846 season 2540.
Luk 13:35 Behold 2400 , your 5216 house 3624 is left 863 unto you 5213 desolate 2048: and 1161 verily 281 I say 3004 unto you 5213, 3754 Ye shall 1492 0 not 3364 see 1492 me 3165, until 2193 302 [the time] come 2240 when 3753 ye shall say 2036 , Blessed 2127 [is] he that cometh 2064 in 1722 the name 3686 of the Lord 2962.
Luk 15:4 What 5101 man 444 of 1537 you 5216, having 2192 an hundred 1540 sheep 4263, if 2532 he lose 622 one 1520 of 1537 them 846, doth 2641 0 not 3756 leave 2641 the ninety and nine 1768 in 1722 the wilderness 2048, and 2532 go 4198 after 1909 that which is lost 622 , until 2193 he find 2147 it 846?
Luk 16:16 The law 3551 and 2532 the prophets 4396 [were] until 2193 John 2491: since 575 that time 5119 the kingdom 932 of God 2316 is preached 2097 , and 2532 every man 3956 presseth 971 into 1519 it 846.
Luk 17:27 They did eat 2068 , they drank 4095 , they married wives 1060 , they were given in marriage 1547 , until 891 the day 2250 that 3739 Noe 3575 entered 1525 into 1519 the ark 2787, and 2532 the flood 2627 came 2064 , and 2532 destroyed 622 them all 537.
Luk 21:24 And 2532 they shall fall 4098 by the edge 4750 of the sword 3162, and 2532 shall be led away captive 163 into 1519 all 3956 nations 1484: and 2532 Jerusalem 2419 shall be 2071 trodden down 3961 of 5259 the Gentiles 1484, until 891 the times 2540 of the Gentiles 1484 be fulfilled 4137 .
Luk 22:16 For 1063 I say 3004 unto you 5213, 3754 I will 5315 0 not 3765 any more 3364 eat 5315 thereof 846 1537, until 2193 3755 it be fulfilled 4137 in 1722 the kingdom 932 of God 2316.
Luk 22:18 For 1063 I say 3004 unto you 5213, 3754 I will 4095 0 not 3364 drink 4095 of 575 the fruit 1081 of the vine 288, until 2193 3755 the kingdom 932 of God 2316 shall come 2064 .
Luk 23:44 And 1161 it was 2258 about 5616 the sixth 1623 hour 5610, and 2532 there was 1096 a darkness 4655 over 1909 all 3650 the earth 1093 until 2193 the ninth 1766 hour 5610.
Luk 24:49 And 2532, behold 2400 , I 1473 send 649 the promise 1860 of my 3450 Father 3962 upon 1909 you 5209: but 1161 tarry 2523 ye 5210 in 1722 the city 4172 of Jerusalem 2419, until 2193 ye 3739 be endued 1746 with power 1411 from 1537 on high 5311.
Jhn 2:10 And 2532 saith 3004 unto him 846, Every 3956 man 444 at the beginning 4412 doth set forth 5087 good 2570 wine 3631; and 2532 when 3752 men have well drunk 3184 , then 5119 that which is worse 1640: [but] thou 4771 hast kept 5083 the good 2570 wine 3631 until 2193 now 737.
Jhn 9:18 But 3767 the Jews 2453 did 4100 0 not 3756 believe 4100 concerning 4012 him 846, that 3754 he had been 2258 blind 5185, and 2532 received his sight 308 , until 2193 3755 they called 5455 the parents 1118 of him 846 that had received his sight 308 .
Act 1:2 Until 891 the day 2250 in which 3739 he was taken up 353 , after that he through 1223 the Holy 40 Ghost 4151 had given commandments 1781 unto the apostles 652 whom 3739 he had chosen 1586 :
Act 2:35 Until 2193 I make 302 5087 thy 4675 foes 2190 thy 4675 footstool 4228 5286.
Act 3:21 Whom 3739 the heaven 3772 3303 must 1163 receive 1209 until 891 the times 5550 of restitution 605 of all things 3956, which 3739 God 2316 hath spoken 2980 by 1223 the mouth 4750 of all 3956 his 846 holy 40 prophets 4396 since 575 the world began 165.
Act 10:30 And 2532 Cornelius 2883 said 5346 , Four 5067 days 2250 ago 575 I was 2252 fasting 3522 until 3360 this 5026 hour 5610; and 2532 at the ninth 1766 hour 5610 I prayed 4336 in 1722 my 3450 house 3624, and 2532, behold 2400 , a man 435 stood 2476 before 1799 me 3450 in 1722 bright 2986 clothing 2066,
Act 13:20 And 2532 after 3326 that 5023 he gave 1325 [unto them] judges 2923 about 5613 the space of four hundred 5071 and 2532 fifty 4004 years 2094, until 2193 Samuel 4545 the prophet 4396.

I am not going to take the time to add color, but on site the 'until' is highlighted in red each time it occurs.

Selecting the Concordance gives this;

Quote:

Lexicon Results Strong's G2193 - heōs ἕως
Transliteration
heōs
Pronunciation

he'-ōs (Key)

Part of Speech
conjunction

Root Word (Etymology)

Of uncertain affinity

TDNT Reference
n/a
Vines
View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) till, until

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 148 AV — till 28, unto 27, until 25, to 16, till + 3739 11, misc 41

Clicking on the C oncordance for say Matthew 2:15 gives;

Quote:

2:15 καὶ ἦν ἐκεῖ ἕως τῆς τελευτῆς Ἡρώδου ἵνα πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν ὑπὸ τοῦ Κυρίου διὰ τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος, Ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐκάλεσα τὸν υἱόν μου

adding Strongs;

Quote:

2:15 καὶ ἦν ἐκεῖ ἕως τῆς τελευτῆς Ἡρώδου ἵνα πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν ὑπὸ τοῦ Κυρίου διὰ τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος, Ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐκάλεσα τὸν υἱόν μου

English (KJV) Strong's Root Form (Greek) Tense
And g2532 καί kai

was g2258 ἦν ēn

there g1563 ἐκεῖ ekei

until g2193 ἕως heōs

the death g5054 τελευτή teleutē

of Herod: g2264 Ἡρῴδης Hērōdēs

that g2443 ἵνα hina

it might be fulfilled g4137 πληρόω plēroō

which g3588 ὁ ho

was spoken g4483 ῥέω rheō

of g5259 ὑπό hypo

the Lord g2962 κύριος kyrios

by g1223 διά dia

the prophet, g4396 προφήτης prophētēs

saying, g3004 λέγω legō

Out of g1537 ἐκ ek

Egypt g125 Αἴγυπτος Aigyptos

have I called g2564 καλέω kaleō

my g3450 μου mou

son. g5207 υἱός huios

And much more, which being propriatory will not copy
So I wonder why you got no results from this site.

.

Joan of Bark · 11-23-2010, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Freewill...Humans are like God, intelligent and able to choose between good and evil...sadly both the angels and the humans chose evil....therefore God killed them and the hybrids.

So the innocent children of the hybrids must die because the omnipotent God can't figure out any other way to set things straight?

And to repeat myself, I ask again, what was the purpose of the flood when it didn't fix anything?

And also again, an omniscient God would have known all that was to transpire as He was creating everything. So why did He create everything knowing that He would have to slaughter everyone? Does He get a kick out of mass murder?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Correction, any rebel who thinks that they could do what they want, are going to die...sorry.

So we have the same free will as the victim of an armed mugging. Give me what I want or I'll blow your brains out. See, the victim has a choice.

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11-21-2010, 10:03 PM	#103
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	sugarhitman, I am not arguing your translation, but that seems to be strange source to be referencing to prove the translation of a Bible word. Might I recommend the Blue Letter Bible It will allow you to find every occurance of any word in The Bible, with both the Hebrew and Greek text, The translations of all major Versions, and Concordance reference for each word listing how many times it appears, every English word used to translate it, and every verse it occurs in. Plus commentaries. Reference material don't get much better, dependable, or easier than that.

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