Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MCalavera · 10-04-2011, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archibald

Though I do think Jesus was described as the messiah, even by Mark.

Quote:

Originally Posted by McAlavara

*sigh*

Jesus is said to be the Messiah according to all earliest sources we have access to.

I like how mythicists like to play words games so much and then project this game they play on the opposite side.

Mark 1:1 (Blue letter bible)
url removed as this is not yet post 5

ἀρχὴ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ υἱοῦ θεοῦ

Looks to me, like Mark is writing:

The first words of the good news of Jesus Christ, son of God.

So, what does "Cristou", i.e. Χριστοῦ, mean to you two members of this forum?

To me, it means, "annointed".

I have no idea from which source you have found "messiah", but I am 100% confident that you will agree with me, that Χριστοῦ does NOT translate as "messiah", but rather, as "annointed".

If the Blue letter bible is wrong, please let me know, I will search for some other source.

Here is my usual source of reference:

url removed as this is not yet post 5

looking forward to your explaining how (precisely how) the most ancient sources identify Jesus of Nazareth as the "messiah".

Not interested in gossip, name calling, or opinions. Just the text.

The Messiah = the Anointed One.

Old Testament prophecies interpreted as Messianic are associated with Jesus Christ in the New Testament as the awaited Messiah.

Not sure what point you're trying to make either.

aa5874 · 10-04-2011, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

...Jesus is said to be the Messiah according to all earliest sources we have access to.

I like how mythicists like to play words games so much and then project this game they play on the opposite side.

What earliest sources??? You mean the Ghost stories of the NT Canon.

I like how HJers play WORD GAMES.

But, you are NOT even correct. You PRESENT propaganda, RUMORS or Chinese Whispers

In the Ghost stories of gMatthew and gMark, the Jews did NOT not even know that a Messiah was among them.

Please, Just GO and read the BIBLE and you will see that you DON'T know what you are talking about.

You need to get EDUCATED about NT Jesus.

On the day Jesus was BAPTIZED in gMark and gMatthew Jesus was UNKNOWN as a Messiah.

King Herod BELIEVED he had ALREADY KILLED the Messiah when he was a Child. Please See gMatthew

It was PETER who FIRST TOLD Jesus himself that he was the Messiah and IMMEDIATELY Jesus PROHIBITED the disciples from repeating the claims of Peter.

Mark 8:27-30[ -

Quote:

27 And Jesus ..... asked his disciples..... Whom do men say that I am?

28 And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.

29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him

It is NOT true that Jesus was KNOWN as the Messiah in the EARLY GHOST stories.

We KNOW that in the earliest Canonized Ghost stories that it was ANOTHER PERSON who was PUBLICLY called the MESSIAH.

Mark 9.38

Quote:

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us; and we forbade him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not.....41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ..... shall not lose his reward.

So, you are DEAD wrong, MCalavera.

Jesus was NOT even known as the Messiah to the JEWS, it was ANOTHER person who PUBLICLY called himself the Messiah in the earliest Canonised Ghost stories.

MCalavera · 10-04-2011, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

So, you are DEAD wrong, MCalavera.

Jesus was NOT even known as the Messiah to the JEWS, it was ANOTHER person who PUBLICLY called himself the Messiah in the earliest Canonised Ghost stories.

Occam's razor, aa5874. You're making things more complicated than they need to be just to make your assertions seem valid.

Maybe I am wrong, but so far the evidence says otherwise.

aa5874 · 10-04-2011, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

Occam's razor, aa5874. You're making things more complicated than they need to be just to make your assertions seem valid.

Maybe I am wrong, but so far the evidence says otherwise.

Oh my GOD!!! What a BIG ..........

You fail to show the evidence for your claim.

I will SHOW you what the WRITTEN EVIDENCE says.

Mark 8

Quote:

27 And Jesus ..... asked his disciples..... Whom do men say that I am?

28 And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.

29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter.......saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.....

It is NOT true that Jesus was KNOWN as the Messiah in the EARLY GHOST stories.

We KNOW that in the earliest Canonized Ghost stories that it was ANOTHER PERSON who was PUBLICLY called the MESSIAH.

Mark 9.38

Quote:

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us; and we forbade him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not.....41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ..... shall not lose his reward.

Please SHOW your "earliest" Evidence that Jesus was known as a Messiah on the day he was supposedly baptised?

You have NOTHING and NOW have began to EMPLOY erroneous information that is NOT even in the very EARLIEST Ghost stories.

Matthewt 16:20 -

Quote:

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

DCHindley · 10-04-2011, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Mark 1:1 (Blue letter bible)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible...&t=MGNT&q=mark

ἀρχὴ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ υἱοῦ θεοῦ

Looks to me, like Mark is writing:

The first words of the good news of Jesus Christ, son of God.

So, what does "Cristou", i.e. Χριστοῦ, mean to you two members of this forum?

Here is my usual source of reference:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...NTpdf/mar1.pdf

The following is from the 17th & 18th "Psalms of Solomon." According to Wiki,

There are currently eight known 11th to 15th century manuscripts of a Greek translation from a lost Hebrew or Aramaic original, probably dating from the 1st or 2nd century BCE. However, though now a collection, they were originally separate, written by different people in different periods.

Politically, the Psalms of Solomon are anti-Maccabee, and some psalms in the collection show a clear awareness of the Roman conquest of Jerusalem under Pompey in 63 BCE, metaphorically treating him as a dragon who had been sent by God to punish the Maccabees. Some of the psalms are messianic, in the Jewish sense (clearly referring to a mortal that happens to be divinely assisted, much like Moses),

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psalms of Solomon

21 Behold, O Lord, and raise up to them their king, the son of David, at the time, in the which you choose, O God, that he may reign over Israel your servant.
22 And gird him with strength, that he may shatter unrighteous rulers. And that he may purge Jerusalem from nations that trample (her) down to destruction.
23 In the wisdom of righteousness he will thrust out sinners from (the) inheritance, He will destroy the pride of the sinner as a potter's vessel.
24 With a rod of iron he will break in pieces all their substance. He will destroy the godless nations with the word of his mouth.
25 At his rebuke nations will flee before him. And he will reprove sinners for the thoughts of their heart.
26 And he will gather together a holy people, whom he will lead in righteousness. And he will judge the tribes of the people that has been sanctified by the Lord his God.
27 And he will not suffer unrighteousness to lodge any more in their midst, nor will there dwell with them any man that knows wickedness. For he will know them, that they are all sons of their God.
28 And he will divide them according to their tribes upon the land. And neither sojourner nor alien will sojourn with them any more.
29 He will judge peoples and nations in the wisdom of his righteousness. Selah.
30 And he will have the heathen nations to serve him under his yoke. And he will glorify the Lord in (a place) well known (above) all the earth. And he will purge Jerusalem, making it holy as of old,
31 so that nations will come from the ends of the earth to see his glory, bringing as gifts her sons who had fainted, and to see the glory of the Lord, with which God hath glorified her.
32 And he (shall be) a righteous king, taught of God, over them. And there will be no unrighteousness in his days in their midst, for all will be holy and their king the Lord's Messiah [καὶ βασιλεὺς αὐτῶν χριστὸς κυρίου].
33 For he will not put his trust in horse and rider and bow, nor will he multiply for himself gold and silver for war, nor will he build confidence in a multitude for the day of battle.
34 The Lord himself is his king, the hope of him that is mighty through (his) hope in God. All nations (shall be) in fear before him,
35 for he will smite the earth with the word of his mouth forever. He will bless the people of the Lord with wisdom and gladness,
36 And he himself (will be) pure from sin, so that he may rule a great people. He will rebuke rulers, and remove sinners by the might of his word.
37 And (relying) upon his God, throughout his days he will not stumble, for God will make him mighty by means of (his) holy spirit, and wise by means of the spirit of understanding, with strength and righteousness.
38 And the blessing of the Lord (will be) with him. He will be strong and will not be weak.
39 His hope (will be) in the Lord: who then can prevail against him?
40 (He will be) mighty in his works, and strong in the fear of God. (He will be) shepherding the flock of the Lord faithfully and righteously, and will suffer none among them to stumble in their pasture.
41 He will lead them all in equality, and there will be no pride among them that any among them should be oppressed.
42 This (will be) the majesty of the king of Israel whom God knows. He will raise him up over the house of Israel to correct him.
43 His words (shall be) more refined than costly gold, the choicest. In the assemblies he will judge the peoples, the tribes of the sanctified. His words (shall be) like the words of the holy ones in the midst of sanctified peoples.
44 Blessed be they that will be in those days, in that they will see the good fortune of Israel, in the gathering together of the tribes, which God will do.
45 May the Lord hasten his mercy upon Israel! May he deliver us from the uncleanness of unholy enemies!
46 The Lord Himself is our king forever and ever.

OPE Psalms of Solomon 18:1 A psalm of Solomon; about the Lord Messiah[τοῦ χριστοῦ κυρίου]. Lord, your mercy is over the works of your hands forever. Your goodness is over Israel with a rich gift.
2 Your eyes look upon them, so that none of them suffers want. Your ears listen to the hopeful prayer of the poor.
3 Your judgments (are executed) upon the whole earth in mercy; and your love (is) toward the seed of Abraham, the children of Israel.
4 Your chastisement is upon us as (upon) a first-born, only-begotten son, to turn back the obedient soul from folly (that is worked) in ignorance.
5 May God cleanse Israel against the day of mercy and blessing, against the day of choice when he brings back his Messiah.
6 Blessed will they be that will be in those days, in that they will see the goodness of the Lord that he will perform for the generation that is to come.
7 Under the rod of chastening of the Lord Messiah[τοῦ χριστοῦ κυρίου], in the fear of his God, in the spirit of wisdom and righteousness and strength;
8 that he may direct (every) man in the works of righteousness by the fear of God, that he may establish them all before the Lord,
9 a good generation (living) in the fear of God in the days of mercy. Selah.

The trick is to stop thinking of "Christ" as a title, as it has in Christian use, but an attribute. The end of age Davidic king, anointed by god to achieve the holy task of setting things right, overthrowing the bad kings and apostasized oppressors of the writer's faction, and ruling rightly and chastizing the foreign nations that oppressed them from without.

This is pre-christian, and represents what "anointed" essentially means - to be dedicated to a task by a higher authority (God in this case).

DCH

tanya · 10-04-2011, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McAlavara

The Messiah = the Anointed One.

Old Testament prophecies interpreted as Messianic are associated with Jesus Christ in the New Testament as the awaited Messiah.

Not sure what point you're trying to make either.

Really?

You are uncertain "what point" I seek to make?

Shall we look at what prompted my reply to you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by McAlavara

*sigh*

Jesus is said to be the Messiah according to all earliest sources we have access to.

I like how mythicists like to play words games so much and then project this game they play on the opposite side.

Does this help jog your memory?

You insulted me, and claimed in utter nonsense, "all earliest sources" describe Jesus of Nazareth as the "Messiah".

I am waiting for your reference documenting this absurd allegation.

Oh, by the way: The Messiah DOES NOT EQUAL the Annointed.

I am a bit astonished that you do not know this.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

There are currently eight known 11th to 15th century manuscripts of a Greek translation from a lost Hebrew or Aramaic original, probably dating from the 1st or 2nd century BCE.

Oh.

I see.

lost, eh?

ok.

Meantime, may I stick with what is not lost? I am disinclined to regard non-existent evidence as particularly useful.

If you wish to defend MCalavara and Archibald, may I humbly suggest that you search for some actual data from the Gospel of Mark, supporting their notion that Mark describes Jesus as the Messiah?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

the rod of chastening of the Lord Messiah[τοῦ χριστοῦ κυρίου

Nope.

No way you get "messiah" from χριστοῦ "cristou". Absolutely not.
Cristou means "annointed", NOT messiah.

If you believe that I am wrong, please give me a reference from a Greek language source, (not "Wikipedia") confirming that the two Hebrew words corresponding to "messiah" and "annointed" are BOTH REPRESENTED in the Greek language, by the same single word: χριστοῦ

DCHindley · 10-04-2011, 07:06 PM

Ohhh-kay. Chip on the shoulder. Bye.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by McAlavara

The Messiah = the Anointed One.

Old Testament prophecies interpreted as Messianic are associated with Jesus Christ in the New Testament as the awaited Messiah.

Not sure what point you're trying to make either.

Really?

You are uncertain "what point" I seek to make?

Shall we look at what prompted my reply to you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by McAlavara

*sigh*

Jesus is said to be the Messiah according to all earliest sources we have access to.

I like how mythicists like to play words games so much and then project this game they play on the opposite side.

Does this help jog your memory?

You insulted me, and claimed in utter nonsense, "all earliest sources" describe Jesus of Nazareth as the "Messiah".

I am waiting for your reference documenting this absurd allegation.

Oh, by the way: The Messiah DOES NOT EQUAL the Annointed.

I am a bit astonished that you do not know this.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

There are currently eight known 11th to 15th century manuscripts of a Greek translation from a lost Hebrew or Aramaic original, probably dating from the 1st or 2nd century BCE.

Oh.

I see.

lost, eh?

ok.

Meantime, may I stick with what is not lost? I am disinclined to regard non-existent evidence as particularly useful.

If you wish to defend MCalavara and Archibald, may I humbly suggest that you search for some actual data from the Gospel of Mark, supporting their notion that Mark describes Jesus as the Messiah?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

the rod of chastening of the Lord Messiah[τοῦ χριστοῦ κυρίου

Nope.

No way you get "messiah" from χριστοῦ "cristou". Absolutely not.
Cristou means "annointed", NOT messiah.

If you believe that I am wrong, please give me a reference from a Greek language source, (not "Wikipedia") confirming that the two Hebrew words corresponding to "messiah" and "annointed" are BOTH REPRESENTED in the Greek language, by the same single word: χριστοῦ

mountainman · 10-04-2011, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Mark 1:1 (Blue letter bible)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible...&t=MGNT&q=mark

ἀρχὴ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ υἱοῦ θεοῦ

Looks to me, like Mark is writing:

The first words of the good news of Jesus Christ, son of God.

Does the earliest Greek manuscript evidence (e.g. Codex Vaticanus) explicate either "Jesus" or "Christ" like the BlueletterBible above, or does it actually use the abbreviated encypted "nomina sacra" forms "J_S" and "C_T".

If the latter, then the "C_T" may refer to "Christos" or to "Chrestos".

Quote:

So, what does "Cristou", i.e. Χριστοῦ, mean to you two members of this forum?

It represents an additional assumption being drawn from the evidence that the abbreviated "C_T" is to be unabbreviated by using the "i" and not the "e". Other 4th century manuscript evidence (Manichaean) explicitly use the form "Jesus Chrestos" in full. Thus the point in how these codes are to be rendered in their "full meaning" is not trivial.

MCalavera · 10-04-2011, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by McAlavara

The Messiah = the Anointed One.

Old Testament prophecies interpreted as Messianic are associated with Jesus Christ in the New Testament as the awaited Messiah.

Not sure what point you're trying to make either.

Really?

You are uncertain "what point" I seek to make?

Shall we look at what prompted my reply to you?

Does this help jog your memory?

You insulted me, and claimed in utter nonsense, "all earliest sources" describe Jesus of Nazareth as the "Messiah".

I am waiting for your reference documenting this absurd allegation.

Oh, by the way: The Messiah DOES NOT EQUAL the Annointed.

I am a bit astonished that you do not know this.....

Oh.

I see.

lost, eh?

ok.

Meantime, may I stick with what is not lost? I am disinclined to regard non-existent evidence as particularly useful.

If you wish to defend MCalavara and Archibald, may I humbly suggest that you search for some actual data from the Gospel of Mark, supporting their notion that Mark describes Jesus as the Messiah?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

the rod of chastening of the Lord Messiah[τοῦ χριστοῦ κυρίου

Nope.

No way you get "messiah" from χριστοῦ "cristou". Absolutely not.
Cristou means "annointed", NOT messiah.

If you believe that I am wrong, please give me a reference from a Greek language source, (not "Wikipedia") confirming that the two Hebrew words corresponding to "messiah" and "annointed" are BOTH REPRESENTED in the Greek language, by the same single word: χριστοῦ

Your amateurish opinion means shit to me, mate.

The Messiah literally means the Anointed One. And you ignored the argument I made about OT Messianic prophecies being applied to Jesus.

If you feel insulted, too bad. You're just wrong and that view of yours can't be taken seriously at all by any experts in the field. You don't believe, go argue with a serious scholar then.

And plus, your style is similar to that of a Jehovah's Witness and such. Twisting the meanings of words in Greek or Hebrew to serve your own agenda. How convenient.

Sheshbazzar · 10-04-2011, 09:46 PM

I might suggest that -someone- here, instead of spouting off their ignorance, really ought do their homework and actually do word study on the Hebrew and Greek words for 'anoint', 'anointed' and 'messiah'. Where they occur within the Hebrew texts and what the corresponding word is that is employed within the Greek LXX translation.

Its really not at all that hard to do, for anyone that actually gives a damn, and for those that do, the facts are inescapable.
Someone here has already proven that they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground on this particular subject.

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10-04-2011, 09:46 PM	#480
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	I might suggest that -someone- here, instead of spouting off their ignorance, really ought do their homework and actually do word study on the Hebrew and Greek words for 'anoint', 'anointed' and 'messiah'. Where they occur within the Hebrew texts and what the corresponding word is that is employed within the Greek LXX translation. Its really not at all that hard to do, for anyone that actually gives a damn, and for those that do, the facts are inescapable. Someone here has already proven that they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground on this particular subject.

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