Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 04-08-2012, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Yet not focusing on the fact the sun was worshipped heavily in previous civilizations, and these same people did in fact migrate to Israel bring in some influence to ancient hebrews forming religion.

But the buck stops there. While a slight background does exist, it was not worshipped heavily and has always as time went by lessened.

Scholars point to Genesis 1, where the sun and the moon -- considered deities by other cultures at the time -- are firmly established as created objects, along with the natural world in general. This would have been in strong contrast to Egyptian ideas of sun gods and moon gods, and the wider pagan ideas of spirits living in trees, etc. Paul also emphasized that the heavens were created objects rather than gods to be worshiped, bringing it all under the providence of God.

outhouse · 04-08-2012, 07:36 PM

is all her work this crappy??????????

Quote:

The sun's "birth" is attended by the "bright Star" either Sirius/Sothis or the planet Venus, and by the "Three Kings," representing the three stars in the belt of Orion.

not a single Israeli ever or ancient hebrew uttered the word 3 kings once refering to Orions belt.

Orions belt is mentioned many times in the bible, but never is that phrase used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)

Orion's Belt is called Drie Konings (Three Kings) or the Drie Susters (Three Sisters) by Afrikaans speakers in South Africa[2] and are referred to as les Trois Rois (the Three Kings) in Daudet's Lettres de Mon Moulin (1866). The appellation Driekoningen (the Three Kings) is also often found in 17th- and 18th-century Dutch star charts and seaman's guides. The same three stars are known in Spain and Latin America as "Orión

NOW lets get on to the terms jews/hebrews are known to use.

The Bible mentions Orion three times, naming it "Kesil" (כסיל, literally - fool. Though, this name perhaps is etymologically connected with "Kislev", the name for the ninth month of the Hebrew calendar (i.e. November-December), which, in turn, may derive from the Hebrew root K-S-L as in the words "kesel, kisla" (כֵּסֶל ,כִּסְלָה, hope, positiveness), i.e. hope for winter rains.): Job 9:9 ("He is the maker of the Bear and Orion"), Job 38:31 ("Can you loosen Orion`s belt?"), and Amos 5:8 ("He who made the Pleiades and Orion"). In ancient Aram, the constellation was known as Nephîlā′, the Nephilim may have been Orion's descendants

outhouse · 04-08-2012, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Yet not focusing on the fact the sun was worshipped heavily in previous civilizations, and these same people did in fact migrate to Israel bring in some influence to ancient hebrews forming religion.

But the buck stops there. While a slight background does exist, it was not worshipped heavily and has always as time went by lessened.

Scholars point to Genesis 1, where the sun and the moon -- considered deities by other cultures at the time -- are firmly established as created objects, along with the natural world in general. This would have been in strong contrast to Egyptian ideas of sun gods and moon gods, and the wider pagan ideas of spirits living in trees, etc. Paul also emphasized that the heavens were created objects rather than gods to be worshiped, bringing it all under the providence of God.

First of all if you know your history, and I think you do.

why ignore the fact that genesis is a heavily fragmented and compiled before redaction, BUT we know the firmament and early creation stories originated from Sumerian/Mesopotamian legends ??????????

No one ever said they were not influenced by previous civilizations

Since most of the people migrated from Canaan [short walk lol] but the rest were Mesopotamian, we have more influence from there.

outhouse · 04-08-2012, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice of reason

Tertullian has a few quotes in the links about worshiping the sun.

I cannot find the Tertullian quotes but they are in one of the many pages of work in the link I provided.

This is from Tertullian's "Ad nationes":
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...tullian06.html

Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshipping the heavenly bodies likewise, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have even admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day, in preference to the preceding day as the most suitable in the week for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and for banqueting. By resorting to these customs, you deliberately deviate from your own religious rites to those of strangers. For the Jewish feasts an the Sabbath and "the Purification," and Jewish also are the ceremonies of the lamps, and the fasts of unleavened bread, and the "littoral prayers," all which institutions and practices are of course foreign from your gods. Wherefore, that I may return from this digression, you who reproach us with the sun and Sunday should consider your proximity to us. We are not far off from your Saturn and your days of rest.

And from Tertullian's Apology:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...tullian01.html

Others, again, certainly with more information and greater verisimilitude, believe that the sun is our god. We shall be counted Persians perhaps, though we do not worship the orb of day painted on a piece of linen cloth, having himself everywhere in his own disk. The idea no doubt has originated from our being known to turn to the east in prayer. But you, many of you, also under pretence sometimes of worshipping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. In the same way, if we devote Sun-day to rejoicing, from a far different reason than Sun-worship, we have some resemblance to those of you who devote the day of Saturn to ease and luxury, though they too go far away from Jewish ways, of which indeed they are ignorant.

you forget a little deity called Yahweh ???

what were his attributes?? was he a warrior deity or a sun god???

outhouse · 04-08-2012, 07:43 PM

I like you GDon this is easy

outhouse · 04-08-2012, 07:50 PM

More retarded Gibberish

Quote:

The sun is the "Carpenter" who builds his daily "houses" or 12 two hour divisions

Jesus was a tekton, he was a handworker never a carpenter.

outhouse · 04-08-2012, 07:58 PM

Quote:

So don't let the nay-sayers get to you!

this is just a matter of education

everyone of her statements are a stretch of the imagination, created to connect non existant dots :tombstone:

The FACT's are that there is no connection to sun worship as a large part of judaism.

"IF" they had worshipped the sun as a deity it would have been very evident. there would be no need to use imagination and ignornace to try and pass this BS off.

Duvduv · 04-08-2012, 08:11 PM

Aren't some of Acharya's list of metaphors for the sun too general to be meaningful? If one looks hard enough one can fit just about everything into a sun metaphor.

outhouse · 04-08-2012, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Aren't some of Acharya's list of metaphors for the sun too general to be meaningful? If one looks hard enough one can fit just about everything into a sun metaphor.

exactly

its one thing to have valid connections, and some may be. But thats all lost when one produces lies for evidence praying that ignorance will reign so these can slip through the cracks without getting called on it.

well said person has the opposite of credibility. its called cash for ignorance.

theist have been doing it for a long time getting bloody stinking rich. Mythers exaggerate in their books for the same thing, while not getting rich.

short books that get to the point without fluff, dont sell. again theist are guilty as well.

Duvduv · 04-08-2012, 08:55 PM

I guess it does damage to the concept of the non-historical Christ idea.
A celestial crucifixion may have something to do with astronomy but its value gets lost in this type of scenario where everything is associated with the sun.
I suppose they could fit john the Baptist and Pontius Pilate into the solar scenario as well as Paul himself.

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04-08-2012, 07:43 PM	#25
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	I like you GDon this is easy

04-08-2012, 08:11 PM	#28
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Aren't some of Acharya's list of metaphors for the sun too general to be meaningful? If one looks hard enough one can fit just about everything into a sun metaphor.

04-08-2012, 08:55 PM	#30
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I guess it does damage to the concept of the non-historical Christ idea. A celestial crucifixion may have something to do with astronomy but its value gets lost in this type of scenario where everything is associated with the sun. I suppose they could fit john the Baptist and Pontius Pilate into the solar scenario as well as Paul himself.

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