Freethought & Rationalism Archive

maryhelena · 03-12-2012, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

mary_helena

While you atre around, what is the status, participation, and influence of Christianity in Soutrh Africa, both black and white.

It does appear that the biblical debates are as important to non believers as well as believers.

Christianity is very Big within the African population. Young white liberal students are another thing though. A few years ago the local University magazine features some religious satire - and promptly go itself into hot water. Mostly from a very vocal Muslim population here in Cape Town. And remember, religious leaders played a big role in the anti-apartheid movement.

aa5874 · 03-12-2012, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Yep - wish it could be said in one sentence....

Your wish has come true.

The Jewish Temple fell c 70 CE and somebody wrote a story to explain why it happened.

la70119 · 03-12-2012, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Image here shows a Pontius Pilate Coin clearly stamped "LH" which the owner of the website interprets as "LIH."

LH = Year 8: 8th year of Tiberius Caesar = 21-22 CE.

LIH = Year 18: 18th year of tiberius Caesar = 31-32 CE.

The coin marked as "LH" is CLEARLY marked so. I do NOT believe that this was a mistake!

L is an abbreviation that stands for "year."

la - the coins do not name Pilate. All these coins do is relate to specific years of Tiberius. Some of these coins are attributed to Pilate simply because of the gospel of Luke dating to the 15th year of Tiberius - ie Pilate was involved with the crucifixion of JC - therefore - coins with corresponding years of the rule of Tiberius - become coins of Pontius Pilate. Josephus not withstanding - ie Josephus is ambiguous re dating Pilate.

Quote:

We should keep it clear in our minds that the coins of Pontius Pilate, like those of other prefects and procurators, bore neither his effigy nor his name. Only the emperor’s name and title appeared, although on the coin of year 29 the name of the emperor’s mother was inscribed.

http://www.coinsite.com/content/arti...tiuspilate.asp

You are right, Josephus is vague on dating Pilate. Present Josephus is contradictory. And early on, Eusebius dated the Crucifixion to BEFORE the expulsion of the Jews from Rome, ca. 19 CE or at the latest, 22-23 CE. Because he said Jeus was crucified BEFORE the tumults under Pilate's reign occured, and at about the same time, two embarassing scandles occured that caused the Jews to undergo "yet another disaster," i.e., the expulsion of Jews from Rome (Ant. 18.3.4).

On 1st C. CE Roman Judean coins: anybody have coins of Vaerius Gratus?

maryhelena · 03-12-2012, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Yep - wish it could be said in one sentence....

Your wish has come true.

The Jewish Temple fell c 70 CE and somebody wrote a story to explain why it happened.

I prefer this one:

The last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus, was bound to a stake/cross, crucified and beheaded in 37 b.c., and somebody wrote a story.

:wave:

la70119 · 03-12-2012, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

The last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus, was bound to a stake/cross, crucified and beheaded in 37 b.c., and somebody wrote a story.

You mean bound to a stake or a post or a pole with or without a crossarm, scourged, and beheaded in 37. BC.

That's what it says in Josephus in the original Greek. Latin sources of other events indicate that the Greek stauros (pale, pole, post, stake, cross) on which people were bound to be scourged or otherwise tortured was a palus (pale, pole, post, stake).

maryhelena · 03-12-2012, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

The last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus, was bound to a stake/cross, crucified and beheaded in 37 b.c., and somebody wrote a story.

You mean bound to a stake or a post or a pole with or without a crossarm, scourged, and beheaded in 37. BC.

That's what it says in Josephus in the original Greek. Latin sources of other events indicate that the Greek stauros (pale, pole, post, stake, cross) on which people were bound to be scourged or otherwise tortured was a palus (pale, pole, post, stake).

Josephus does not mention anything about Antigonus being bound to a stake or cross or pole etc. That info is from Cassius Dio.

Cassius Dio's Roman History:

Quote:

http://www.brainfly.net/html/books/diocas49.htm

These people Antony entrusted to a certain Herod to govern; but Antigonus he bound to a cross and flogged,— a punishment no other king had suffered at the hands of the Romans,— and afterwards slew him.

As for the discussion re stake or cross or pole, post etc - it's all been debated in this earlier thread - in which you participated...

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....80#post7053280
The crucifixion of Jesus

aa5874 · 03-12-2012, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Yep - wish it could be said in one sentence....

Your wish has come true.

The Jewish Temple fell c 70 CE and somebody wrote a story to explain why it happened.

[I prefer this one:

The last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus, was bound to a stake/cross, crucified and beheaded in 37 b.c., and somebody wrote a story.

:wave:

Did you not just say that you wished your story could be written in a sentence.

Perhaps 99% of your story still need to be written and then explained.

And further, you are attempting to discredited your source for your story.

Sheshbazzar · 03-12-2012, 10:44 PM

From the Torah perspective an עץ 'atz' is an עץ 'atz' is an עץ 'atz', no matter in what form, shape, or variety it is.
Unless a particular shape, form, or variety of עץ is specifically indicated.

Thus 'wood', 'tree', stake', 'pole', 'cross' or 'gallows' are all included, the common denominator being any form of wood.

One hung on a 'tree', stake', 'pole', 'cross' or 'gallows' or wood of any sort or fixture is all the same under the rules of Torah.
This explains why these various forms are interchangeably used in the texts.

It's shape or form really doesn't make any difference at all.....
Unless.... one is Hell-bent upon the venerating of an image :devil1:....such as that old brass snake on a stick Moses lifted up in the wilderness. (get it?)

.

maryhelena · 03-12-2012, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

From the Torah perspective an עץ 'atz' is an עץ 'atz' is an עץ 'atz', no matter in what form, shape, or variety it is.
Unless a particular shape, form, or variety of עץ is specifically indicated.

Thus 'wood', 'tree', stake', 'pole', 'cross' or 'gallows' are all included, the common denominator being any form of wood.

One hung on a 'tree', stake', 'pole', 'cross' or 'gallows' or wood of any sort or fixture is all the same under the rules of Torah.
This explains why these various forms are interchangeably used in the texts.

It's shape or form really doesn't make any difference at all.....
Unless.... one is Hell-bent upon the venerating of an image :devil1:....such as that old brass snake on a stick Moses lifted up in the wilderness. (get it?)

.

:thumbs:

maryhelena · 03-12-2012, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Yep - wish it could be said in one sentence....

Your wish has come true.

The Jewish Temple fell c 70 CE and somebody wrote a story to explain why it happened.

[I prefer this one:

The last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus, was bound to a stake/cross, crucified and beheaded in 37 b.c., and somebody wrote a story.

:wave:

Did you not just say that you wished your story could be written in a sentence.

Perhaps 99% of your story still need to be written and then explained.

And further, you are attempting to discredited your source for your story.

I'm not discrediting the Josephan source at all....

Remember, Josephus is a prophetic historian - so he is not confined to a historical accounting. History and pseudo-history; history and its interpretation; history as 'salvation history'. It's limiting Josephus to being only a historian that is limiting inquiry into early christian origins.

Quote:

Preface to the War of the Jews, ch.1.par.6

....many Jews before me have composed the histories of our ancestors very exactly;......... But then, where the writers of these affairs and our prophets leave off, thence shall I take my rise, and begin my history.

Quote:

War, Book 3 ch.8

“….he called to mind the dreams which he had dreamed in the night time, whereby God had signified to him beforehand both the future calamities of the Jews, and the events that concerned the Roman emperors. Now Josephus was able to give shrewd conjectures about the interpretation of such dreams as have been ambiguously delivered by God. Moreover, he was not unacquainted with the prophecies contained in the sacred books, as being a priest himself, and of the posterity of priests"...

Quote:

Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Robert Karl Gnuse.

For Josephus prophets and historians preserve the past and predict the future, and he has picked up the mantle of creating prophetic writings. Perhaps, in his own mind he is the first since the canonical prophets to generate inspired historiography....

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03-12-2012, 10:44 PM	#48
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	From the Torah perspective an עץ 'atz' is an עץ 'atz' is an עץ 'atz', no matter in what form, shape, or variety it is. Unless a particular shape, form, or variety of עץ is specifically indicated. Thus 'wood', 'tree', stake', 'pole', 'cross' or 'gallows' are all included, the common denominator being any form of wood. One hung on a 'tree', stake', 'pole', 'cross' or 'gallows' or wood of any sort or fixture is all the same under the rules of Torah. This explains why these various forms are interchangeably used in the texts. It's shape or form really doesn't make any difference at all..... Unless.... one is Hell-bent upon the venerating of an image :devil1:....such as that old brass snake on a stick Moses lifted up in the wilderness. (get it?) .

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