elevator

If we observe the presence of evil and varying levels of virtuosity, those observations would, in my mind, speak against the existence of a God, not for it. Human behavior is more consistent with an evolved sense of morality than one granted by a perfect creator. It is not hard to see how basic emotions such as love, anger, jealousy, altruism, etc. could have evolved. We see these basic emotions even in some animals.

I resently watched a fantastic show about killer whales attacking grey whale calfs outside the coast of California (by Monterrey). A mother grey whale defended her calf against a group of 15-20 killer whales for 7 hours (in front of hundreds of human witnesses moved to tears). She put herself in between the calf and the attackers, she suffered major internal damage from the continuous ramming from the killer whales. Despite having the fend off the attackers she managed to get her calf close enough to the coastline where it was so shallow that the attackers couldn't follow. This grey whale mother exhibited levels of courage, love for her calf, and anger towards her attackers that you would rarely expect in an animal (or even in a human). In a world where it is necessary to defend your offspring against predators, it is easy to see how these virtues would be useful in an evolutionary context.

ETA: the show was called Whale Attack and aired on the National Geographic Channel.

ohmi

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God created evil for His apparent purpose in it ,why would you think that presence of evil speaks against God's existence?

There are no levels of virtuosity , one is either a saint or a sinner , being lukewarm hypocrites, in denial [as most are , especially religionists! ] is actually worse than actually living one's beliefs and finding out their failures

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Again you did not see my point, men live in conflict with their innate morality , thus it is not evolution that explains human behaviour.
As I pointed out, mankind is distinct from the animals in living in denial and conflict within self ... the world lies to us so that we end up lying to ourselves ... this is not evolution then.

I have seen a similar film in which the calf eventually dies ... the thing to observe is that it is humans, not whales who are crying, because they realise inside the failure of their own 'morality' [conscience] and tend to identify with the mother whale , yet understand that some humans are more like the predator , and see the conflict that BOTH are within them ... the truth of the tears indicates the conflict , which is non-evolutionary .

elevator

Because you said yourself that God's ultimate goal for humanity is to turn them into moral saints. Is it so hard to imagine these virtues to be evolved when we see many of the same virtues in animal behavior? Humans behave exactly in the same ways but we are also heavily influenced by culture and the fact that we have such a large brain. If you attribute moral behaviors to a God, you must contribute immoral behaviors to God as well. This is inconsistent with the presence of a God, but seen in an evolutionary context; it makes perfect sense.

The evolutionary selfish gene (see Richard Dawkins book with the same name) predicts that humans tend to do what makes sense to assure self-survival. But at the same time we have evolved altruistic abilities (to enhance social coherence). These two evolutionary mechanisms for survival are in inherent conflict with one another. The fact that they are; is striking evidence for their evolved origins.

It is arrogant to assume that this whale mother wasn't feeling extreme distress. That some of us are moved to tears by watching such a struggle for survival is evidence of our altruism, which is a virtue present in many other animal species. Altruism, as illustrated before, is an evolutionary trait. Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy - Altruism entry

ohmi

Immoral behaviours from God are inconsistent with the soothsayings and old wives tales of religion, but not with the scripture of God...

But the conflict caused in humans by denying our inner deepest desire to be loving is an evolutionary disadvantage which should thus have disappeared, yet it is increasing, not even decreasing... not dealing in the truth, lying to oneself, is a human property not continuous with anything in animals that is a disadvantage in extreme , yet it thrives in human beings , even to the point now where humanity knows that it is destroying our home planet's capability to support us , and still we do not act to live [sustainably] in Love as we should all be most happy to do .

Pure myth since we all know now that humanity is killing off the ecosystem on which we know we depend for food ... this is death-wish , not survival... in just a century we shall have destroyed half the other species on the planet and made human survival here impossible ... this evil is only possible because people lie to themselves and believe lies of others , and these things cannot favour evolution of mankind, yet flourish.

LOLOL ...take a look at the world , Love is being squeezed out , altruism is scarce indeed and heavily discouraged , even by persecution and even assasination of those who try to make things work in a loving way ... there is no basis whatever for it being evolutionary, it would have disappeared long ago if it were.

I think that maybe you just read this somewhere without thinking it through... else please explain how you think this is any sort of evidence at all, let alone "striking".

It is arrogant to assume that this whale mother wasn't feeling extreme distress. That some of us are moved to tears by watching such a struggle for survival is evidence of our altruism, which is a virtue present in many other animal species. Altruism, as illustrated before, is an evolutionary trait. Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy - Altruism entry[/quote]

People that are afraid of death cry [truth about themselves] when confronted with death, it has nothing to do with altruism.

elevator

There are evolutionary advantages to both. Selfish behavior is advantageous to individual survival. Altruism is advantageous to social coherence (and group survival). And there is nothing that indicates that utter and complete unselfishness is an evolutionary advantage over a balance of selfish survival and altruism. In fact, as shown in the Stanford article I gave you; complete altruism can be disadvantageous.

Which one is most destructive for the ecosystem; believing that one day you will spend eternal bliss in heaven (or alternate existence or whatever you want to call it) with God; or realizing that this life is the only one we have and that it must be treated with utmost reverence and respect and the environment must be preserved for generations to come? Environmental scientists are the first ones to warn of this threat. No divine involvement is required. I am as concerned about environmental predation as you are; precisely because I recognize that this may be the only home we have. Why do I feel like we have already argued this…?

Wow, you must truly live in a sad world. Have you ever observed people at an airport? Have you ever been at a wedding, a funeral, or a baptism? Have you ever seen people’s reactions to horrible events? Have you ever visited a children’s hospital? Have you ever heard of wartime bravery or the extent to which some parents are willing to go to protect their kids? Yes the world is a bad place indeed; but wars are waged because of religious differences and conflicts over resources, not because we are somehow loosing our moral basis as a direct consequence of disbelief in God, or that in order to tap into these virtues we must accept God. You see very few people who have departed completely from moral values and the ones who have are either insane or blinded by religious dogmatism (as seen with some muslim fundamentslists). If there is good in the world it is because we make it so. If there is evil in the world it is because we make it so. No divine involvement required.

It is no secret that our will to survive is an evolutionary trait. Without it, we wouldn’t last long in a prehistoric society full of predators. It is also easy to see how this evolutionary trait could be supplemented with basic morality and altruistic virtues in a world where living together as a coherent group of individuals is more advantageous than surviving alone.

Do you think this whale mother was afraid of death or more concerned with the well-being of her calf? I bet the well-being of the calf came first. Behavior like that is about as altruistic as you can get. She was literally willing to sacrifice her own life to assure the survival of her offspring. What about that has nothing to do with altruism? We see this behavior in many animal species.

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And again, let keep these posts as short and single-topic as possible. I really don’t want it to grow back into the monstrous posts we had before.

ohmi

The altruism in humans has nothing to do with so-called [misnamed] genetic 'altruism' , people are not altruistic in order that they or their family produce more kids !!!!

elevator

But that is how it evolved. If altruism is present in people today it is because it was an evolutionary advantage at some point in history. Animals are altruistic for the exact same reasons! If a grey whale can use its altruistic behavior to assure the survival of its calf; then the same altruistic behavior would have the exact same benefits for a prehistoric human. If humans then later used their exceptionally large brains to develop their evolved altruistic basis into a more refined/complex set of moral values; then so be it, but this mechanism requires no divine involvement.

ohmi

The altruism of humans is innate, not mediated by manipulation by the brain, and not directed at making more kids ... the situation in human societies is quite the reverse of what you surmise, the corrupted society teaches false values in place of altruism and Love is lost from the many in an absurd scramble to get more than others... which is destroying our earth , dramatically reducing the survivability of mankind as a whole along with the ecosystem on which we depend for food.

elevator

But if altruism in humans is innate, it is because of the evolutionary advantage, not because God planted it there. The fact that these basic virtues are present in many animals too should be evidence of that. Dogs may adopt orphaned youngs from other species (such as cats). Walruses do the same thing. This behavior is certainly not directed towards making more kids. The evolutionary advantage of altruism is group survival. Remember how I said that in species with complex social patterns, it is advantageous not only to assure the survival of oneself and one's offspring, but it is also advantageous to behave in such a way as to promote the survival of the entire social group. Hence the evolutionary mechanism to explain such behavior is certainly there.

More complex moral ideas outside of what is provided by basic altruism is the result of larger brains. Dolphins, for example, have a very advanced set of altruistic behaviors (such as helping other animals in distress by pushing them to the surface, for example). Humans even more so, as a result of their exceptionally large brains.

ohmi

Or both ,of course ... but you have no evidence about human altruism , because altruism is not about having more kids...

But you have no evidence of that, redefining 'altruism' as something to do with reproduction is bizarre enough , but then generalising it to humans where it simply is clearly untrue is very passionate for your cause, but makes no sense ...

You just haven't understood what altruism is, it has no cause [except the Love within], it ain't aimed at anything , least of all bringing even more offspring [whether ones own or someone else's] into a world overcrowded with humans ...