fatpie42

Yule was celebrated around Winter Solstice time. That tended to fall around the 25th December. Of course many of those who celebrated the winter solstice would not have the use of a calendar, but it still remains that the Christmas festival was in place on the winter solstice festival.

Perhaps I'm missing the relevance of your assertion. The connection between the 25th December celebration of Christmas and the prior celebration of the Winter Solstice seems pretty clear to me. What am I missing?

GakuseiDon

What the claim actually was. Rlogan claimed "The celebration of winter solstice (It was on the 25th before the calendar changed)."

Andrew responded, "FWIW there is rather little evidence of a pre-Christian festival of the winter solstice on the 25th of December."

What is the evidence for a pre-Christian festival of the winter solstice on the 25th of December? What happened during Yule -- or Stonehenge, for that matter (for rlogan) -- on 25th December? And how much evidence is there for that event happening on the 25th December?

andrewcriddle

There may be two issues here

a/ Yule is a Scandinavian winter festival, rather than a Mediterranean one. And its direct relevance to the origins of the Christian festival of the Nativity on the 25th of December is hence limited. (Christmas originated among Mediterranean Christians.) What I think we are discussing is whether or not there was a pre-Christian festival of the Winter Solstice in Greek Roman etc circles which could have influenced the origins of Christmas. Ancient Scandinavian or Germanic customs are not directly relevant.

b/ It is not entirely certain that there was a pre-Christian Scandinavian Yule festival at the Winter Solstice, and sources such as Snorri Sturluson that refer to such a pre-Christian festival claim that it was only synchronized with the Christian feast of the Nativity by the Christian ruler Hakon. See Keeping Christmas

Andrew Criddle

fatpie42

I used the example of the Yule Log because the time it is expected to burn so perfectly parallels the tradition of '12 days' at Christmas. However, if you want other celebrations in a similar area, there is no shortage:

Deygān - From Zoastrianism
Certainly the religion precedes Christianity.

Saturnalia - Ancient Greece, Roman Republic
This festival would finish with the 23rd December and since Jesus' birth was considered to be a victory it is unsurprising that it would be placed symbolically after the period of darkness.

Sol Invictus - 3rd Century Roman Empire
Of course, Christianity doesn't become prominent in the Roman Empire until the 4th Century. December 25th is here used as the day of victory which later became linked with Christ when the Roman Empire changed its central religious tenets to those of Christianity.

I still do not see why you find this contentious....

Yes, I am using wikipedia. However, this gives you the opportunity to pinpoint precisely which claims you are contesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

fatpie42

1. There clearly is evidence that the Roman celebrations were either on or shortly preceding the 25th December. :constern01:

2. If you are going to start pointing to other pagan cultures where a reliable calendar was unavailable, of course you aren't going to be able to pinpoint the exact date of 25th December. It's a seasonal celebration, not a calendar-based one. However, the Roman choice of 25th December is clearly based on the time of the solstice celebrations. - Or so it seems to me. I may be missing something. :huh:

Solo

No, I don't think you are missing anything. The Roman solstice celebration was dedicated to Sol Invictus, and fell on December 25th. Until cardinal Ratzinger (Benedict XVI.), even orthodox Catholics had little problem with tracing the Christmas traditions to that particular festivity. The Catholic Encyclopedia (published in 1908) admitted without much blushing that the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, as the festival was known, "has a strong claim on the ...December date".

Jiri

andrewcriddle

The problem with the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti on December 25th is that it is unlikely to be pre-Christian. Some scholars think that Aurelian introduced it in 274 CE but this is uncertain. It may predate any Christian adoption of December 25th for the Nativity of Christ but even this is uncertain.

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse

Andrew is quite right. There are many difficulties with the glib associations that one finds online. I got interested in the Sol Invictus festival a couple of years ago, and while it is entirely possible that the date of Christmas was shifted to replace that festival, there is no direct evidence of it and some of the data suggests otherwise.

The only mention of the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti comes in the calendar in the Chronography of 354 AD, along with another document which records the celebration of Christmas and seems to predate it. The older Roman festivals all have a set number of games allocated to them; the later ones often have more, and this is therefore a festival created in late Roman times. Natalis may not mean "birthday" but "anniversary of the dedication of the temple"; in which case the festival would record the dedication by Aurelian of the temple of Sol Invictus in 274 AD.

But as Andrew said, the information we have is quite uncertain. The certainties one reads online are nearly all bogus. Always ask to see the source data.

Someone mentioned Saturnalia. Saturnalia was celebrated from 17-23rd December. It's in the calendar in the Chronography. It can't have anything to do with the origins of Christmas; the dates forbid. If someone wants to say that various customs travelled over -- and people do say this -- then I think we need to see the primary texts on Saturnalia, all laid out nice and clearly, first.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle

I'm finding it difficult to get accurate information on the feast of Deygān most of the Internet sources seem to repeat questionable information.
Deygan Festival and Zarathushtrian festivals May be helpful.

It is probably not part of the most ancient form of Zoroastrianism and, if as suggested Zurvanite in origin, it might well be after Christ. In any case it seems to be a reaffirmation of Ahura Mazda in the depths of Winter, rather than a Winter Solstice celebration as such.

I can't see that the Saturnalia has any real connection with the Winter Solstice.

I've dealt with Sol Invictus in another post.

The general point raised is how similar do two festivals have to be to support a real connection ? Happening at roughly the same time is IMO insufficient.

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse

As has been pointed out, however, whatever you are referring to can have no relevance to the origins of Christmas, since the location and time frame are wrong.

Never heard of it. But ... what ancient sources record this? What do they say? Which ancient text records the adoption of festivals from Zoroastrianism (the enemy of the Romans, remember?). In short... we need to be much more sceptical here.

Saturnalia is a Roman, not a Greek festival. It ran from 17-23rd, and therefore has no connection with 25 December.

The dates are wrong on all these statements - sorry.

Contentious? No. It's just wrong, factually. You may not know that there are people out there inventing stories like this, purely out of malice, knowing that Christians reject paganism. This means that we have to be very sceptical on such stories, and always, always, ask to see the ancient evidence.

One "joy" of Wikipedia is that people multiply articles in order to sneak back in tosh that has been banished from previous articles. The "Winter solstice" article is the latest one, is it? <sigh>

All the best,

Roger Pearse