Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 05-06-2005, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

The gospels clearly indicate Peter was a witness of the suffereing leading up to the crucifixion though.

Would you mind indicating where you find this?

Quote:

Therefore even if Peter was not present at the crucifixion (and I'm not saying he was or wasn't)...

Only the Fourth Gospel identifies a disciple witnessing the crucifixion but it isn't Peter. The others describe only women witnessing the event.

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The trial in Gesthemene is another example. Peter was a winess to this suffering as well.

Matthew, Mark, and Luke say Peter stayed out in the courtyard denying any association with Jesus until going outside to cry. John adds the Unknown Disciple and claims he, unlike Peter, actually went into the priest's house.

judge · 05-07-2005, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

There was a trial in Gethsemane?

Not a legal one

I should have used a different word.

Matthew 26

Quote:

36Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."

�*�*�* 39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

�*�*�* 40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

�*�*�* 42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

�*�*�* 43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

�*�*�* 45Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"

judge · 05-07-2005, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Matthew, Mark, and Luke say Peter stayed out in the courtyard denying any association with Jesus until going outside to cry. John adds the Unknown Disciple and claims he, unlike Peter, actually went into the priest's house.

sorry should not have used the word "trial" as it has led to a misunderstanding. Not a legal trial.
Peter is present at gesthemene and is present when jesus is arrested, is present in the courtyard when he denies Jesus.
Thus he is a witness. He may not see everything but he is a witness to some parts of it.

Furhter the gospels indicate the suffering or trials of Jesus occurred in the time leading up to the climax in Jerusalem.

Luke 22
�*�*�*

Quote:

24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Mark 14 shows the suffering is going on at Gesthemene

Quote:

They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." 33He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them.

This last quote is probably more pertinent ot the original question than your point though

hammodius · 05-07-2005, 06:20 AM

In one of his letters, it looks John also makes an eyewitness claim.

I John 1:1-4 (NIV, from Bible Gateway):

Quote:

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our[a] joy complete.

Amaleq13 · 05-07-2005, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Peter is present at gesthemene and is present when jesus is arrested, is present in the courtyard when he denies Jesus.

Peter was asleep in the Garden while Jesus prayed!

I think it is an incredible stretch to interpret the 1Peter claim to refer to watching him get arrested.

Peter couldn't see anything that was going on inside if he was out in the courtyard or crying outside the house.

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He may not see everything but he is a witness to some parts of it.

Sorry but that is simply not credible. The original claim clearly refers to suffering of the crucifixion and arguably includes any beating beforehand but Peter isn't depicted as witnessing any of that. Ask a million Christian's what is meant by the phrase "Christ's suffering" and I don't think you'll even get one who doesn't immediately identify the crucifixion though many might also add the scourging.

Peter Kirby · 05-07-2005, 04:13 PM

Something is lost in translation here (the so-called "literal" reading discussed above is a reading of the English and so can hardly be assumed literal with respect to the Greek text). Something like testifier/bearer of Christ's suffering would be the connotation I read, based on other references to "witnesses"/"martyrs" in the early Christian writings. Such a person would preach Christ crucified, remain faithful to Christ, and share in his sufferings, to death if need be. (The act itself of martyrdom is when one testifies publically about Jesus; a common-enough consequence is the association with death for the faith that the English word has today.) The full sentence supports this also, "a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed" not being a prediction of Peter's own entry to heaven but rather a description of who an "elder" is.

best,
Peter Kirby

lee_merrill · 05-07-2005, 05:07 PM

Hi everyone,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter

Something like testifier/bearer of Christ's suffering would be the connotation I read, based on other references to "witnesses"/"martyrs" in the early Christian writings.

That's true, the Greek meaning is the important one here, not the English meaning, as you said! Now Peter does use the word which can only mean eye-witness in 2 Peter 1:16, which refers to Peter witnessing his majesty. But if "witness" is meant in 1 Peter too…

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Peter couldn't see anything that was going on inside if he was out in the courtyard or crying outside the house.

But Peter could see what was happening while he was in the courtyard, though…

Luke 22:61 And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the saying of the Lord, how he had said to him, "Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me three times."

And we don't know where he was on the next day, or what he saw then...

Regards,
Lee

Amaleq13 · 05-07-2005, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Something like testifier/bearer of Christ's suffering would be the connotation I read, based on other references to "witnesses"/"martyrs" in the early Christian writings. Such a person would preach Christ crucified, remain faithful to Christ, and share in his sufferings, to death if need be.

I think that interpretation makes the most sense and is consistent with some of the things Paul feels free to say in Galatians:

"I am crucified with Christ" (2:20, KJV)

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?" (3:1, KJV)

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05-07-2005, 04:13 PM	#16
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Something is lost in translation here (the so-called "literal" reading discussed above is a reading of the English and so can hardly be assumed literal with respect to the Greek text). Something like testifier/bearer of Christ's suffering would be the connotation I read, based on other references to "witnesses"/"martyrs" in the early Christian writings. Such a person would preach Christ crucified, remain faithful to Christ, and share in his sufferings, to death if need be. (The act itself of martyrdom is when one testifies publically about Jesus; a common-enough consequence is the association with death for the faith that the English word has today.) The full sentence supports this also, "a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed" not being a prediction of Peter's own entry to heaven but rather a description of who an "elder" is. best, Peter Kirby

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