Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 08-23-2010, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Were I to suggest that George Washington was an historical figure would you insist that I demonstrate that he chopped down a cherry tree or threw a silver dollar across the Delaware? I don’t think so. I think you would understand that these are legendary details that surround an historical fellow. You would not say that unless he did those things then he is not George Washington.

The stories that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree or threw a silver dollar across the Delaware are NOT the criteria to determine that he did exist.

It is the historical records of George Washington that help to confirm his historicity.

There are legendary details of Jesus that he walked on the sea, transfigured, resurrected and ascended through the clouds but NO external historical records of Jesus.

Jesus was truly ALL legendary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

..I think we ought to agree that there came a time when at least some people began to regard Jesus as an historical figure. That much should be something we can agree upon. I asked you before and I’ll ask again, when do you think was the earliest time when at least some people began to regard Jesus as an historical figure?

Steve

But, did you NOT claim that "we all know that there are no surviving relevant documents from that time"?

Do you really understand what is meant by an "historical Jesus"?

There came a time when Christians claimed Jesus was NEVER really a God/man.

There came a time when Christians claimed Jesus was ONLY a God.

Neither a God/man or a God are considered "historical". Gods and God/men are MYTHS.

A Pauline writer, claiming he was alive during the reign of Aretas c 40 CE, wrote that Jesus the Messiah was the Creator of heaven and earth, and was resurrected.

No external historical source have identified any one named Jesus who was a Messiah of the Jews before the Fall of the Temple.

A Jewish Messiah was the single MOST EXPECTED ruler for Jews, Josephus fought with the Jews EXPECTING a Jewish Messiah at around 70 CE, yet no Jewish writer wrote about a Messiah called Jesus.

And further, there is no external historical source that can show that Jews would have worshiped a man as a God. Even Tacitus wrote that Jews did not worship their own Jewish kings or the Roman Emperors as Gods

The character called Jesus the Messiah of the NT appears to be a fictional/mythical story, as you can see, and was believed to be true by the DUPED.

Steven Carr · 08-24-2010, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Steven

From the Gospel accounts we can glean at least two plausible reasons why the Romans would have crucified the Jesus described in the Gospels. 1) Because he had agitated a disturbance in the Temple, perhaps being regarded as an insurrectionist by the Roman authorities; or 2) because he had set himself up as a King over the Jews as was the accusation on his cross. Either would have been enough to get a Jew crucified in that time and place. Blaspheming the Hebrew God would not.

I looked at the Gospel of John, and I could not see where the disturbance in the Temple led to his death.

The other Gospels are clear that Pilate wanted to release this 'King'.

A lunatic calls himself 'King', and he is crucified while a convicted insurrectionist is released?

Let us look at this scenario.

Jesus calls himself 'King'

He is killed for his trouble.

After his death, his brother leads the Jesus movement.

The Romans leave him alone, and write letters saying they have no idea what followers of this Jesus movement have done wrong.

How likely is this?

Steven Carr · 08-24-2010, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Were I to suggest that George Washington was an historical figure would you insist that I demonstrate that he chopped down a cherry tree or threw a silver dollar across the Delaware? I don’t think so. I think you would understand that these are legendary details that surround an historical fellow. You would not say that unless he did those things then he is not George Washington.

I think we ought to agree that there came a time when at least some people began to regard Jesus as an historical figure. That much should be something we can agree upon. I asked you before and I’ll ask again, when do you think was the earliest tim
e when at least some people began to regard Jesus as an historical figure?

Steve

If I were to demonstrate that Frank Friegel existed, would you demand that I demonstrate that he ate a lot of spinach, had a girlfriend called Olive Oyl, and had a friend called Wimpy?

I think you would understand that these are legendary details that surround an historical fellow. You would not say that unless he did those things he was not the basis for Popeye.

aa5874 · 08-24-2010, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Were I to suggest that George Washington was an historical figure would you insist that I demonstrate that he chopped down a cherry tree or threw a silver dollar across the Delaware? I don’t think so. I think you would understand that these are legendary details that surround an historical fellow. You would not say that unless he did those things then he is not George Washington.

I think we ought to agree that there came a time when at least some people began to regard Jesus as an historical figure. That much should be something we can agree upon. I asked you before and I’ll ask again, when do you think was the earliest tim
e when at least some people began to regard Jesus as an historical figure?

Steve

If I were to demonstrate that Frank Friegel existed, would you demand that I demonstrate that he ate a lot of spinach, had a girlfriend called Olive Oyl, and had a friend called Wimpy?

I think you would understand that these are legendary details that surround an historical fellow. You would not say that unless he did those things he was not the basis for Popeye.

But, the author of the fiction character "Popeye" did not claim that "Popeye" was based on any real life events of Frank Friegel or any other real person.

"Popeye" is simply a fiction character.

Jonathon Wilder · 08-24-2010, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziffel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Does Ehrman claim there was a Jesus Christ, or just a Jesus?

Jonathon, you do realize that Ehrman lost his faith as a result of his NT studies, right?

Yes, I know... let me show you Daniel McKinlay's full email to me on the subject:

Quote:

Those who don’t believe that Jesus existed are pretty much on the fringes of historical inquiry. In the world of scholarship there are those who question the historical accuracy of New Testament narratives, but most of them will acknowledge that there was a historical Jesus who served as the basis of the movement called Christianity. I would suggest as one approach among many that you check out the works of Bart Ehrman in your local library or at bookstore that carries religious works. He is one of the more prominent professors on New Testament and early Christian studies. I understand that he is not a believer but he does recognize Jesus’ existence. So he might have some affinity with your friends. There are other great scholars who happen to be believers.

Once you establish that Jesus lived about 2,000 years ago you can go farther by reading materials that identify Jesus with his many roles as outlined in the Bible and the restoration scriptures.

Toto · 08-24-2010, 08:58 AM

Do you think that if you can show that Jesus existed, that you can then move on to show that he was the son of god who died for our sins and therefore god exists? Is that the game plan?

Toto · 08-24-2010, 09:05 AM

Daniel McKinlay

In this essay he tries to support the historicity of the the book of Nephi.

Jonathon Wilder · 08-24-2010, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Daniel McKinlay

In this essay he tries to support the historicity of the the book of Nephi.

Now do not try and put him off because he is an LDS scholar.

Toto · 08-24-2010, 09:13 AM

What is your game plan in trying to prove that Jesus existed?

James Brown · 08-24-2010, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Do you think that if you can show that Jesus existed, that you can then move on to show that he was the son of god who died for our sins and therefore god exists? Is that the game plan?

Remember the story of the camel's nose in the tent.

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08-24-2010, 08:58 AM	#36
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Do you think that if you can show that Jesus existed, that you can then move on to show that he was the son of god who died for our sins and therefore god exists? Is that the game plan?

08-24-2010, 09:05 AM	#37
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Daniel McKinlay In this essay he tries to support the historicity of the the book of Nephi.

08-24-2010, 09:13 AM	#39
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	What is your game plan in trying to prove that Jesus existed?

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