Steven Avery

Understood. And I appreciate your comments here. It is very helpful when a reader works their way through such a discussion. And I was trying not to be at all negative toward believers who have a different textual inerrancy viewpoint. Who offer their thoughts, corrections and their own research in sincerity.

Precept upon precept, line upon line.

Here is an article that gives a lot more of the Jewish rabbinical exegetical background. It can use its own little post, I am giving some of the extracts here.

The Prof. Umberto Cassuto reference on Apologetics Press leads us to..

http://www.seliyahu.org.il/parasha/p.../epar63012.rtf
Seventy Souls By Rav Elchanan Samet

7 - HAR ETZION (VBM)
Virtual Beit Midrash, Alon Shevut, Gush Etzion 90433 ...

A) INTRODUCTION TO PARSHAT HASHEVUAH
The Birth of Yocheved

A TEXTUAL DIFFICULTY AND RASHI'S RESOLUTION
These are the names of Yisrael's children that were going to Egypt, Ya'acov and his sons: the firstborn of Ya'acov was Reuven… (46:8).

The text says thirty-three, but counting up the individuals only yields thirty-two. Rather, this is a reference to Yocheved, who was born between the walls as they entered the city. Thus the verse later states that "she was born to Levi in Egypt" (BeMidbar/Numbers 26:59) to indicate that only her BIRTH was in Egypt, but her GESTATION was not" (commentary to 46:15).

IBN EZRA'S REFUTATION
…the Midrash explains that this refers to Yocheved who was born between the walls, but this is astonishing. Why would the text not later have mentioned the great miracle that attended the birth of Moshe, namely that Yocheved at that time would have been one hundred and thirty years old!? ... What appears to me is that Ya'acov himself is to be counted in the tally, and in fact it begins with him, as if the text had stated that " these are the descendents of Leah that she bore to Ya'acov in Padan Aram, as well as his daughter Dina. All of the souls of his sons and daughters WITH HIS OWN equaled thirty-three". The proof for this is the fact that the verse begins by mentioning "Ya'acov and his sons", for it says: "These are the names of Yisrael's children that were going to Egypt, YA'ACOV AND HIS SONS: the firstborn of Ya'acov was Reuven… (46:8).

Ibn Ezra .. feels that such a pedigree for Rashi's Midrash is lacking. Somewhat predictably, the mystically-inclined Ramban (13th century, Spain) comes to Rashi's defense while the ultra-rationalist Rashbam (12th century, France) sides with the Ibn Ezra.

B) INDEPTH PARSHAT SHEVUAH
Seventy Souls
By Rav Elchanan Samet
A. INTRODUCTION: LISTS IN THE TORAH
In the first tally, Yaakov is included with the children of Leah, and therefore the total is 33 – including him ... In order that the total equal 70, we must add Yaakov to Yosef and his two sons (since no number is mentioned specifically in connection with them). In this way Yaakov completes the census of Leah's children on the one hand, and that of Rachel's children on the other. And both end up with the number they should have. ...
The answer provided by the Midrash – that the 33 children of Leah include Yaakov, while the total of 66 does not include him – may be proved from the language of the text in both instances. ....

E. WOMEN WHO ARE INCLUDED IN THE LIST AND WOMEN WHO ARE NOT
Clearly, the actual number of people who came down to Egypt was greater than seventy, for the wives of Yaakov's sons are not included, as is stated explicitly in verse 26:
"All the souls who came to Yaakov in Egypt, who came from his loins, ASIDE FROM THE WIVES OF YAAKOV'S SONS…." ....

G. CASSUTO'S EXPLANATION OF THIS QUESTION
... It is probable that the "seventy sons of Yaakov," like the seventy families, was a fixed number... a kind of sacred figure... It is probable that the "seventy sons of Yaakov," like the seventy families, was a fixed number... a kind of sacred figure...

Cassuto concludes his article as follows:
"As a result of a careful examination of the texts, we have thus succeeded in understanding the intention of the author and in convincing ourselves that our chapter accords, in the simplest manner, with what is stated in Bereishit 46, removing at the same time the chronological difficulty that militated against the comprehension of the narrative as a unitary composition. This study clearly shows that the arguments that at first sight appear strongest against the unity of the Biblical stories are sometimes easily demolished when we carefully investigate the wording of the text, without preconceived ideas."

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Apikorus

Gamera, first you tell us what biblical Hebrew grammars you have read and how that allows you to determine the implied tense of HRH in Isaiah 7:14 (on which you have held forth in an earlier thread).

Better yet, why don't you defend a point of view? Do you agree with praxeus that it is reasonable to interpret the figure of 75 in Acts 7:14 (and why is it always verse 7:14?) as including unidentified daughters-in-law? Or do you find with me that it is more probably due to the influence of another HB text type on the author of Acts?

Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

And to tie up a couple of loose ends,
give the early rabbinical reference of the claim of Stephen error,
and have a number of URL's in one spot.

First, the article that I attributed to James Patrick Holding (JPH)
from his website is actually written by Eric Vestrup.

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/peopletoegypt.html
Pack the SUV! How Many Went to Egypt with Jacob? - Eric Vestrup

Also helpful was the apologetics press article.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/619
Jacob's Journey to Egypt by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

The excellent Floyd Nolen Jones material is at -
http://www.floydjones.org/LXX.pdf
The Septuagint: A Critical Analaysis
The Fallacious Nature of the LXX Demonstrated p.41 and to p.47

And my former short post and references -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messia...c/message/9145
Septuagint & Acts 7:14 - "threescore and fifteen souls."

Thomas Holland, with a short summary, references the Haley material.
http://www.purewords.org/kjb1611/html/lesson08.htm
The Hebrew Masoretic Text and Greek Septuagint

The short John W. Haley explanation. (Haley often makes the
mistake of going to 'scribal error'. However here he is fine and
in my first discussions on this his book came through nicely.)

http://tinyurl.com/29dzge
Examination of the Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible (1876)

Will Kinney's Septuagint article.
http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/NoLXXThree.html
Did Jesus quote the Greek Septuagint?

John Gill is one of the few who emphasizes the glaring addition
of five names in the Greek OT.

John Gill's Commentary
http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/acts/gill/acts7.htm
"alter and corrupt the Septuagint .. add five names in it ..
Machir, Galaad, Sutalaam, Taam, and Edom, to make up
the number seventy five"

John Gill gives an ancient citation of a Jewish claim of error by Stephen.
This would be a work by the Karaite Isaac Ben Abraham Troki, 16th century.

R. Isaac Chizzuk Emuna, par. 2. c. 63. p. 450.
http://faithstrengthened.org/
Faith Strengthened by Isaac Ben Abraham of Troki

(Which apparently is not on the net yet.)

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Gamera

My Hebrew isn't worth a dime, though my Greek is etsi ketsi, and I could wipe you out in Anglo Saxon and Old Norse. I rely on experts for Hebrew, as well as the tried and true practice of good translations.

That doesn't excuse you for mischaracterizing an influence intellectual movement in the humanities without haven't read one word of it. I'm not criticizing your philological skills; I'm criticising your knowledge of current theories of historiography.

As I said from the start, I believe the Hebrew scriptures are a pastiche, with different authors and different audiences and different purposes at different times. So it doesn't bother me in the slightest that there are factual inconsistencies or multiple meanings to the same words used by different authors. Indeed, I would think it inevitable. At the same time, I appreciate praxeus' demonstrating the complexities of the passages that some detractors glibly claim show this or that.

Steven Avery

Thanks. And I like looking up these 'challenges' when they have some pizazz.

Did you see the multiple weaknesses on the Yocheved idea that
Api was pushing so hard as great savvy missed by some ?

1) It very awkwardly pulls Jacob out of the "House of Jacob" count.
(something I asked Api about again and again, no response)

2) There is no direct textual warrant

3) Moses becomes a hidden 'miracle birth'

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Apikorus

Me neither, of course.

As I said, I think this solution is completely unsupported by the text. But it does obviate the difficulty of saying that the Bible is only "approximately correct" in Exod 1:5. And of course awkwardness is in the eye of the beholder.