spin

I thought I'd already expressed just how I felt clearly enough: the word was "impressed". Now have you finished your pettifogging? or do you have more phantom protests and quibbles? I'm quite sure you know what the issue is and I wonder if you still feel like splitting hairs.


spin

Amaleq13

IMO, Burton Mack, in Who Wrote the New Testament?, does a pretty good job describing the hijacking of Jewish Scripture by Church Fathers starting in the 2nd century.

judge

Yes people like Justin certainly did ransack the HB in an attempt at apologetics.
Al throughout the boks of the NT we find that the authors see the Coimg of Christ as the fulfillment of the expectation of the messiah.

So this alleged "crime" LOL started before the 2nd century.

Acts chapter 2 for example.

14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.'[3]
22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[4] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25David said about him:
" 'I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will live in hope,
27because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.'
29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '
36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

judge

Here is some more. acts chapt 4

8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.[1] '[2] 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Romans chapt 15.

7Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews[2] on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:
"Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
I will sing hymns to your name."[3] 10Again, it says,
"Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."[4] 11And again,
"Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and sing praises to him, all you peoples."[5] 12And again, Isaiah says,
"The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;
the Gentiles will hope in him."[6]
13May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I could go on and on but I'm sure you get the point.

spin

Yes, that you have no interest in history when you make faith pronouncements about dates.


spin

judge

Which faith pronouncements about which dates?

spin

"So this alleged "crime" LOL started before the 2nd century."


spin

NOGO

So you object to the different name.

We all know that early Christians were Jews. They invented the new belief and part of it was that the old covenant with Yahweh had been superseded or replaced. Paul took it upon himself and the risk of his life to spread the new belief to all Gentiles.

I would call it a gift from Paul. Theft implies that Greek and others went looking for this.

I do not object to calling it Hebrew Bible in the context of first century events. I object to the idea of intellectual theft.

Makes no sense.

judge

Yes according this link.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

the following writings are from before the 2nd century

50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews

NEXT!!



:boohoo:

Woops (addedin edit) not to mention all these other books which may be relevant as well.



65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James

80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement

90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Titus

100-160 2 Peter




:boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo:

capnkirk

Damned straight Xtianity is NOT the fulfillment of OT (or HB) prophesy! Certainly almost none of the Jews in Judea at the time thought he was. Why not? Were they (as Xtianity has always strongly implied) just too stupid to see what was right before their eyes? Jesus was in no way the embodiment of their prophesies because THEIR prophesies described a human claimant to the throne of David, not some (completely alien) divine human for which there was absolutely no precedent in their entire history, and I am not speaking strictly in terms of a messiah. The whole concept of a divine human is antithetical to Judaism...and THAT's why very few Jews ever converted to Xtianity!

Of course it is necessary for Xtians to overlook this inconvenient fact, else one is forced to admit that Xtianity has NO roots in Judaism. The Judaic Yahweh neither begets nor was he begotten. Haven't you ever wondered why, if Xtianity naturally flowed out of Judaism, the two religions are so alien to each other? The obvious reason is that Xtainity's roots lie elsewhere! No wonder you're confused.